fuel leaking from top of generator

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Jenn52
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fuel leaking from top of generator

#1

Post by Jenn52 »

We have an 85 Powerhouse double mantle model 290. We took it apart to clean it as the fuel knob was stuck, when we put it back together we put a little fuel in it and pressurized it. When we turned the fuel on we saw fuel running down the generator, collecting on top of the nut at the bottom of the generator and onto the outside of the tank. Also we do not hear the whooshing sound that is so familiar with these lanterns.

The mantels are in fine shape but Coleman customer service said that the solution was to replace them. Any suggestions will be helpful as this is our 1st time taking this thing apart to clean. We did not remove the mantles to clean the screens at the bottom of the burner assembly nor did we remove the valve assembly from the tank but everything else got a thorough soaking and cleaning. :? and scared to light it
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#2

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

Hi Jenn52,

Welcome to the forum from Colorado.

Have you inspected the neoprene pump cup for wear or cracks?

After pumping for 40 strokes, did you open the fuel cap and listen for a loud hiss as the air escapes?

How much of this lantern did you disassemble and clean? Which parts?
290_Pump_Cup.JPG
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#3

Post by Majicwrench »

I'm not sure you need to worry about that pump, sounds like you built pressure.

When fuel is running down generator...is lantern lit?? It is NORMAL for fuel to come out top of generator if lantern is not lit and up to temp.

You should pump up lantern, open valve 1/4 turn, and hold match at mantles. You should hear a hissssssss followed by a spitting sound, this is when it should light. Then leave valve at 1/4 turn for 20-30 seconds before opening fully.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#4

Post by Jenn52 »

Coldwaterpaddeler & Majicwrench
Thank you so much for the help.

Our pump cap is metal so no cracks there. It was not up to running temp as it has been in it's storage box for years. When we took it out the fuel knob was on high and would not move as we tore into it we saw a lot of green so cleaned it really good.

We took off and disassembled the generator, took the generator completely apart and soaked it in fuel then took old toothbrush to all it's parts, even took off the tiny cap and made sure the tiny hole for that hair thin wire was clean. I don't remember being able to see that wire before but it is up there now and does not seem to move as the fuel knob gets turned. Should it move up and down when the knob gets turned? Should it stick out the top of the generator?

Removed the fuel knob connector(valve assembly) but we did not remove the part that goes into the tank. We did not fill the tank with fuel just maybe about 1/2 - 3/4 cup - it holds pressure but we do not get the hissing sound when the fuel is turned on.



Also have not pressurized it and NOT turned the fuel on to see if it leaks without the knob being turned on. I will try that and see what happens - just so we know......... I don't think there is such a thing as too cautious when it comes to mixing gas and fire :(
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#5

Post by JimL »

No indication to me that its the pump, and the opening of a quarter turn applies to earlier non-adjustable lanterns.

Definitely add more fuel for at least the first light-up, get some decent pressure in the fount, and as the instructions on the collar state, have a lit match to the mantels before opening the valve.

Did you try to light it? Or just open the valve and saw fuel running down the generator? With the valve open, fuel will flow. If you leave it open, expect fuel to keep flowing and when you light it with all that liquid fuel, you'll have a nice fireball. Make certain it's dry before trying to light as noted above. You can remove the vent and globe so they don't get soot if it doesn't want to light properly.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#6

Post by zoomkat »

"We took it apart to clean it as the fuel knob was stuck, when we put it back together we put a little fuel in it and pressurized it. When we turned the fuel on we saw fuel running down the generator, collecting on top of the nut at the bottom of the generator and onto the outside of the tank. "

My first question would be just how much of the lantern did you take apart? That being said, two things might be in play. First, fill the fuel tank full up instead of just having a partly filled tank, at least for the time being. Second, if this an "adjustable" lantern with only a fuel control valve, the fuel control valve should be *fully open* for the lantern startup. The "adjustable" lanterns are of a different design than the older lanterns and have different start requirements.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#7

Post by mcdugal2 »

Did you get the hook of the cleaning rod back in the eccentric? Does the lantern have a heat shield? The wire should be retracted at 'off' and 'on' and should poke through going from one to the other being fully extended midway through.. with the generator off can you see if the eccentric even moves when you turn the knob?
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#8

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

Jenn52, I was asking about the pump "cup", not the pump "cap". The cap is metal, but the pump cup is typically neoprene or possibly leather, but not metal. Old ones can get cracks and give intermittent results until they go bad completely. I thought it would be an easy thing to check and also thought I recalled a weak pump causing just a dribble of fuel coming out of the gen and then leaking down the side.

There is a C clip which holds the top part of the lantern in place. If you remove it you can lift off everything and easily observe what's happening with the fuel and generator. Once you have the top removed, I suggest pumping it 40 -60 times and see if fuel seeps out of the generator. These have Schrader valve cores used for the on/off valve. When they go bad they can seep fuel and it can then drain down the generator. This can happen just by sitting in the shelf, or can happen as you begin pumping.
290_C_clip.JPG
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#9

Post by Jenn52 »

Hello Everyone and thanks for all the suggestions.
JimL - no we didn't try to light it as we did not hear the hissss sound and the fuel knob was only on for a few seconds. We turned it off and started drying up the fuel.

Zoomcat - "We took off and disassembled the generator, took the generator completely apart and soaked it in fuel then took old toothbrush to all it's parts, even took off the tiny cap and made sure the tiny hole for that hair thin wire was clean. I don't remember being able to see that wire before but it is up there now and does not seem to move as the fuel knob gets turned. Should it move up and down when the knob gets turned? Should it stick out the top of the generator?" We will reassemble it add more fuel and pressurize it to see if t leaks while in the OFF position. And, yes it is adjustable it has to be in the "High" position to light.

Mcdugal2 - yes we got the hook back in the top of the eccentric. We did not even know the tip of the generator would come off until we soaked it in gas and after soaking awhile picked it up and saw gas coming out in a tiny stream and when stream stopped I thought it to be empty - turned it to scrub it with tooth brush only to see fuel flood out the large end. Found the top was removeable and removed it checked it real good using a flashlight and THOUGHT it was solid but put it all back together and saw the wire sticking out the top but the wire does not move as we turn the fuel knob. I would think on HIGH it may be visible but in the OFF position it would not. There is only 1 way for it to hook back into the eccentric and have the foot of the generator seat and the eccentric goes up and down when we turn the fuel knob but for some reason the wire isn't moving.

Coldwaterpaddeler - sorry I misunderstood - what part is the pump cup? We had removed the cap then the globe, lifted out the burner assembly, loosened the nut at the bottom of the generator removed the C clip, removed the whole top. Got the generator off and disassembled, unhooked the wire and soaked it removed the knob and knob shaft - soaked everything in fuel scrubbed off the green and put it all back together. The only thing we have not done (as far as cleaning) is to remove the mantles from the burner assembly and clean the screen where the mantle attaches to the foot of the burner - could that be part of the problem with not hearing the hiss and the fuel running down the generator? Then again why is the wire not moving up and down - so confused on that :(

I thank everyone for all the help as this is the 1st time we have ever taken it apart.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#10

Post by zoomkat »

" Found the top was removeable and removed it checked it real good using a flashlight and THOUGHT it was solid but put it all back together and saw the wire sticking out the top but the wire does not move as we turn the fuel knob. I would think on HIGH it may be visible but in the OFF position it would not."

If you are referring to the pricker wire on the end of the pricker rod, then when the fuel valve is off, the pricker wire sticks up into the generator orifice. When the fuel valve is open, the pricker wire is withdrawn from the generator orifice to allow vaporized fuel to flow. If the pricker wire does not move as the fuel control valve is operated from closed to open, then the parts may not have beed reassembled correctly. Below are some pictures that show typical operation.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#11

Post by Jenn52 »

Zoomcat - thanks for the diagram and yes it makes sense. The pricker wire on the end of the pricker rod is not moving up and down. When we put the knob shaft in we had to push the eccentric down to get the pin of the knob shaft in the proper place. Then as we turn it - it turns all the way around and the eccentric goes up and down but does not seem to go down as far as it was when we 1st took it apart. Then as we add the pricker wire the spring and the generator tube - the pricker wire is sticking out the top - the knob stops in the correct positions but the wire is not moving.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#12

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

The pump cup is what I'm showing in the first photo I posted. But, since you write that the needle/wire isn't moving, that needs to be addressed first.

If the hook on the end of the tip cleaner rod (pricker rod/wire) is properly inserted into the eccentric block, it should move. So . . . There is small plastic part, listed as number 40 in Zoomcat's drawing Figure 1. Maybe it came out of place when you removed the valve stem, although, if the valve knob has full travel from off to high, this seems less likely. In your previous post you say, "when we put the knob shaft in", so it seems like you removed it. You probably needed to push down the eccentric block to get the parts aligned.

With the generator removed can you show photos of the eccentric block in the off, middle and high positions? I believe the middle position should place the eccentric block in the highest position.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#13

Post by Jenn52 »

ok - here we are - disassembled again
Image

This is with the eccentric pushed in
Image

This is with the eccentric pulled all the way up
Image

This is with the eccentric neither pushed in or pulled up
Image

We are having to push the eccentric in as far as we can in order to get the pin on the fuel control knob to seat properly but once we reassemble the generator the pricker wire does not move
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#14

Post by Jenn52 »

As for the pump cup - I don't know where that is or how to get to it. I took pics and inserted them but at my end for some reason it is not showing the pic just an icon that there is an image - sorry I don't know how to fix that either
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#15

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

Okay, no problem. I'll show you what I mean.

First, with the valve in the off position the eccentric block should look like this:
290A_Eblock_up.JPG

And, with the valve all the way counter clockwise it should look like this:
290A_Eblock_down.JPG

And, if the generator tip cleaner hook is like this and the other eccentric block positions are correct, then it should work.
290A_Eblock_gen_hook.JPG


I'm not sure you could reinstall the valve stem if the internal plastic block was misaligned. I tried it, but then I couldn't turn the valve fully.

Check the tip-cleaner hook for correct installation. Install it into the eccentric block and then turn the valve fully counter clockwise to draw it down and hold it in place while you get the rest of the generator and nut installed. Then check again from the top to see if the tip cleaner wire moves.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#16

Post by Jenn52 »

When we 1st took it apart the eccentric was way down like in your 2nd picture but now we can not get it to go that low. We have to push the eccentric down as far as we can just to get the pin on the knob control to seat into the eccentric and pushed down as far as it will go it is about the same or even higher than your 1st photo.

If we look inside the hole for the knob control we can see something black on the side that is stopping the eccentric from going down any further. I can only assume it is the shrader valve so I guess we will have to put the valve assembly in the vice to get it out as we have tried to turn it with pliers and it will not budge.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#17

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

No, that's not the schrader valve core. It's a valve insert (at least that's what I call it). See photo. I'm not sure you'll be able to get it re-aligned without removing the valve from the fount.
290_Valve_Insert.JPG
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#18

Post by JimL »

If you see something blocking it, I think it was just reassembled incorrectly for things not to line up now. In particular, the part in the middle of Stovie-Steve's pic.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#19

Post by Jenn52 »

I will remove the part connected to the tank (valve assembly) and see if I can realign the valve insert. That black piece is what is blocking the eccentric from going all the way down - it's like it is spring loaded or something. Without tearing into that part to begin with I don't understand how it could have gotten misaligned.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#20

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

If you removed the valve stem, that would allow the eccentric block to move freely and that would allow enough play for the plastic piece to become misaligned. The reason it feels spring-loaded is because of the Schrader valve core. It's just that little black plastic piece in there between the eccentric block and the valve core. It's possible that with a flashlight and a bamboo skewer, you might be able to re-align it while lifting up on the eccentric block and save yourself some trouble. As you can see from the previous photo, the plastic piece is basically a circle part with a post sticking up out of it. If you can get it close it'll probably align.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#21

Post by zoomkat »

In the pictures I posted, there are two pieces, 40 and 59, that are operated by the pin on the fuel control shaft. The pin base on the fuel control shaft appears to push 40 down to open the Schrader valve, and 59 (eccentric block?) is pulled down by the tip of the pin. It may be possible that the pin tip (control shaft) is not far in enough to engage with 59. It may require pushing 59 down a little to get the pin tip to move in a little and engage 59 properly. The pin tip might just be against the side of 59. If 59 is not engaged with the pin tip, 40 will be operated but 59 will not.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#22

Post by mcdugal2 »

Here is a better picture of 59..
288C3041bigger.jpg
This one shows where everything lines up. The white dots show where the pin goes (it is recessed a little..), the black line shows where the post on the block (40) is supposed to be...
288C3041bigger2.jpg
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#23

Post by sjsjr86s »

I would swap in a new fuel/air tube. The ones on my 285 and 288 (mini powerhouses) were tempermental and replacing them did the trick. I would think that the upper "vapor" intake is clogged on your pickup (might be varnished) or might be cracked (it's plastic) so the liquid fuel is going up the genny at full pressure and all fuel without any air. the plastic fuel air tubes are said to let in a fuel air mix on start and then uses witchcraft to switch to mostly pressurized fuel as heat and pressure build up. kidding on that last part about witchcraft but they apparently do something to switch from vapor to hard fuel. the old 220s have an actuator that does this depending on how open the fuel wheel is. I got new fuel air tubes for about $5 each online plus shipping. I would bet big that its your problem. either its cracked on the body or the o ring is hard and cracked. Mike's got new o-rings at OCP I could not get it right with an o-ring kit from the store. I have heard that these are VERY dependent on orfice size on the lower pickup so a crack in the body would simulate a larger pick up orfice. Just throwing this out there fer 'ya hope u find the gremlin!
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#24

Post by sjsjr86s »

Jenn52 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:29 pm I will remove the part connected to the tank (valve assembly) and see if I can realign the valve insert. That black piece is what is blocking the eccentric from going all the way down - it's like it is spring loaded or something. Without tearing into that part to begin with I don't understand how it could have gotten misaligned.
if you have no fuel or air coming out when turned off I highly doubt the alignment is your problem. If it was misaligned, it would not shut off. also bear in mind that the valve packing needs a really good squeeze to fully engage the eccentric block. Just pull the valve out of the fount and reassemble that way its much easier. replace the fuel air tube while youre in there I just went on about that a moment ago. I have got big money that the pickup tube is clogged or cracked esp if its OG to the lantern
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#25

Post by Jenn52 »

Before trying to remove the whole thing from the fuel tank I will try to align the black plastic piece - in the photo above it looks like it should be on the left side of the eccentric and when I lift the eccentric and look inside the hole for the knob control it is on the right and that is what is stopping the eccentric from going down any farther than it does. As I said we have to push the eccentric down as far as we can to get the pin for the control knob to seat into the eccentric. When we get this right should I put some kind of gas resistant tape on the threads? If so is 1 better than another?
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#26

Post by sjsjr86s »

I don't use tape unless I have a leak; I just clean the threads thoroughly with a copper brush. I use the yellow tape from Home Depot if i need it Careful when using tape though because it makes it very easy to overtighten parts. yes the block and the valve inset fit together like a puzzle in there. best of luck let us know how you make out!
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#27

Post by Jenn52 »

OK the black piece is aligned - we see it on the left BUT the eccentric still does not go down like it should :evil: :(
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#28

Post by zoomkat »

"OK the black piece is aligned - we see it on the left BUT the eccentric still does not go down like it should"

You might, just as a test, only put the eccentric block in and see if you can get the pin on the valve shaft to engage the eccentric block and move it up and down.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#29

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

At this point could you post a photo or two? If the plastic piece is aligned properly to the eccentric block and the valve stem is reinstalled properly the eccentric block should operate as shown. Does the valve wheel turn a full 180 degrees?
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#30

Post by outlawmws »

Do you have he valve on or off while trying to get it aligned and installed? That may affect easy alignment and assembly?
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#31

Post by Jenn52 »

ImageI have tried to put photos in here and I can't get them to post for some reason. I went to editor & preview clicked on the icon to insert photo but I don't see the photo when I tell it to paste it inserts an icon not the photo
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#32

Post by kellyblues »

Jenn52 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:14 am ImageI have tried to put photos in here and I can't get them to post for some reason. I went to editor & preview clicked on the icon to insert photo but I don't see the photo when I tell it to paste it inserts an icon not the photo
Click the picture icon
Image

That places the cursor between the brackets
Image
Screenshot_20210321-061744~3_copy_270x76.png
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#33

Post by kellyblues »

Well , my pictures didn't work like I wanted them to. Click the picture icon. Then under the attachment tab below select file. Make sure it's sized down
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#34

Post by CaptainFantastic »

Help with photo uploading can be found here

https://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/ ... 14&t=20696

https://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/ ... 14&t=20702

and

https://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/ ... 14&t=23259

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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#35

Post by kellyblues »

CaptainFantastic wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:45 am And is that kellyblues I see back after a long break!!!???? Welcome home, sir!
Yes sir it is! Thank you, it's nice to be home
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#36

Post by Jenn52 »

Image
sorry the pics are so big but at least you now have pics - you have eccentric pulled up, pushed in and just resting
Image

Image
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#37

Post by Jenn52 »

ok - now I am confused - yesterday I could see the photos today I have this message

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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#38

Post by Trout »

You just need to login.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#39

Post by sjsjr86s »

you may need to push the eccentric down when trying to engage the pin on the valve handle shaft into the eccentric. where it is in the middle picture is where it should be when it's off. when you turn the valve on it will draw The eccentric down into the valve body remember that the spring on the Schrader is going to push the eccentric up so you'll have to push it down while you're trying to engage it. if you have a bad o-ring on your pickup or a bad Schrader leaking pressure into the valve body, you'll have a symptom of not ever shutting off unless pressure is released. if you've not replaced the pickup do yourself a favor order one while you still can, pull that valve off the fount, put the valve handle on then install the plastic insert and then the pickup. I don't think these were made to have the handle removed while under spring tension from the Schrader. it's also possible that you may have a wrong part in there that is putting pressure on the Schrader even when it's off. that will cause that same issue of fuel coming out of the generator even if it's turned off. I am sure if you pull the valve off the fount and pull the parts out and take a picture of somebody here will know if you have something wrong in there which is especially possible if somebody has been in there before you.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#40

Post by Jenn52 »

We never removed the valve from the font - all we did was pull the fuel knob off. Yes we have to push the eccentric down in order to get the pin to seat into the eccentric but then the fuel knob will not turn at all. Yes in the second pic the eccentric is pushed in as far as it will go and it is not as low as when we took the knob shaft off.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#41

Post by outlawmws »

Has someone partially removed the Shrader valve? that would cause both issues...
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#42

Post by Jenn52 »

have not removed the valve from the tank so no way to get to the shrader valve
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#43

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

I'm sure it's frustrating that removing the wrong part (valve stem) can cause such a headache. Since the eccentric block doesn't want to align properly with part 40 I think you're at the point where you'll need to remove the valve to get it all back together properly. My method is to dab acetone on the the threads of the valve body where it meets the fount. I do this several times over the course of 10 minutes or so and then use a strap wrench and an adjustable wrench to remove it. There are several other methods and you can search the forum for ideas which may match the tools you have available. For any of us who have the tools we could have your lantern running in about 15 minutes as I don't believe there is anything seriously wrong here. It's just a disassembly/reassembly issue.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#44

Post by zoomkat »

I still think there is a parts misalignment. I don't think one should have to push down on the eccentric block to engage the valve shaft pin with the block. Is it possible the valve shaft is rotated 180 deg. out of alignment? Looking at the diagram, the eccentric pin should be at the top of the valve shaft when reassembling. Perhaps the valve shaft knob has been removed and then put back on out of rotational alignment and causing confusion.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#45

Post by Jenn52 »

Well we put the valve into the vice and it took all my better half had to turn it and break it loose so I can assure you it had not been turned 180 deg. and gotten out of alignment. we are now going to remove the whole thing and see if we can see any problem with the shrader as to why the eccentric will not go down any further than it does - wish us luck! TRUST me if I lived near you I would bring it to you have a cup of tea or coffee and WATCH you so if this ever happened again - 15 min is nothing - but maybe after all we have been through we will be able to detect any problems in the future
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#46

Post by Jenn52 »

well gentlemen - we removed the schroder valve and while I was in here trying to shrink a photo so send - my better half let his frustration get to him - we have all heard don't get mad get a bigger hammer - well he turned the valve upside down and beat it on the edge of the table - he saw the black piece move down - after the third beating it went way down and he replaced the knob shaft. We reassembled the whole thing and it is burning just fine. All I can think is the black piece had some green corrosion holding it up too high and him beating on it cleared it out. All I know is it is working just fine - I thank all of you for all your help and coldwaterpaddeler - from what I can tell you are the BEST help on this model!! ;) thank you so much for all your help
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#47

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

Thanks for the kind words and glad we all could help. I hope you enjoy your Coleman lantern again.
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#48

Post by Jenn52 »

Image

Thanks again :) :D
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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#49

Post by kellyblues »

Jenn52 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:45 am Image

Thanks again :) :D
That's awesome! Glad you guys got it going!

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Re: fuel leaking from top of generator

#50

Post by Jenn52 »

Ok guys - now that we have it working isn't it supposed to be a white flame? Ours is yellow/amber and has a heart beat. (pulsing)
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