228E 3 52 Disassembly

[Madcap]

I'm definitely new yet and still not up to speed on some of the techniques for safe removal of certain parts.

I need to remove the tip cleaner body from a 60 sixty year old 228E in order to remove the frame and collar. I watched Frank's video on Old Town Coleman and finally got one off a 220E but had to use a crescent wrench and damaged it. This old 288 seems even tighter. I don't have a lantern vice and so far heat and penetrant hasn't had any effect.
Any suggestions appreciated -

edit:228E is correct - thanks

[bngreenchev]

Are you referring to this part but on a 288?

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[Kgam1020]

I think he is talking about a 228E.

[Kgam1020]

I always thought once you removed the tip cleaner assembly the eccentric block just slid out of the housing.? I haven't had to remove one myself yet..

[TwoCanoes]

Here's the setup I used until I made a fount vice. Make sure the strap wrench is gripping the thick, lower edge of the fount. If it slips up onto the side of the fount, you're likely to dent the fount. The strap wrench should be pretty cheap at a hardware store. A monkey wrench or Ford wrench is perfect for this job. I have a couple, and the jaws on both are narrow enough to grip the tip cleaner assembly without damaging the threads into which the tip cleaning lever goes. Protect the generator mounting threads by threading on the nut. By the way, there are easy, relatively cheap fount vice designs that have been posted in the past.

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[Madcap]

Stewart - I think you may have the answer for now. I've never noticed a strap wrench anywhere before but soon as I can find one I'll look forward to trying it. I''ll get back with the results soon I hope.
Thanks all

[zoomkat]

"I need to remove the tip cleaner body from a 60 sixty year old 288E in order to remove the frame and collar. I watched Frank's video on Old Town Coleman and finally got one off a 220E but had to use a crescent wrench and damaged it."

Have you loosened the screw holding the burner tubes so the burner tubes can be removed for more access?

[Madcap]

"Have you loosened the screw holding the burner tubes so the burner tubes can be removed for more access?"

No, I haven't but will and maybe allow more access.....thanks
Soon as I have a chance to look for a strap wrench I give that a try too.

[adkbill]

Many of the more seasoned members of this forum have probably seen this before,
however I will add my two cents that the best bang for the buck in fount vises
is an old school Workmate Deluxe.
The center pegs are prefect for 220-sized founts and smaller founts can be secured with shims.
Some of the other Workmates have different peg patterns so this one with the foot-stand is the one I recommend.
Usually can be picked up cheap at yard sales

Workmate Fount Vise 220 20.jpg

Workmate Deluxe All rs 10X.jpg

[TwoCanoes]

And here's the benchtop Workmate I use. I swap out the plywood jaws depending on the size of the fount.

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[Mister_Wilson]

Workmates are great fount holders. I've drilled additional holes to position the pegs exactly where I want them.

[Madcap]

That's excellent - I'm going to start looking for one...how long have you had that one?

[Madcap]

I installed a replacement tip cleaner body from Mike, and OCP.....thought all was good when I discovered the spring was missing from the orig the generator. OK, I had a complete. new, spare generator. A couple new mantles were put on it taken outside last night for a test light. She pumped fine, opened the valve, heard some air and waited sec, and tried lighting - nothing. Tried again and same.The generator was taken out and proved to be for a 200 single mantle. The light went on in my head - it was the wrong generator.
A replacement 228 generator should be here next week.

[TwoCanoes]

That's excellent - I'm going to start looking for one...how long have you had that one?

I've had my benchtop Workmate for decades. I got a new Workmate 225 for Christmas this year. I use them both a lot.

[Murff]

Where Stewart has his pipe wrench will work, but I use a deep socket on the valve stem packing nut with a long extension as a handle for leverage.

Murff

[TwoCanoes]

Where Stewart has his pipe wrench will work, but I use a deep socket on the valve stem packing nut with a long extension as a handle for leverage.

Murff

Just to be clear, that's not a pipe wrench in my photos, it's a monkey wrench. The difference is significant in this context. A monkey wrench is like your standard adjustable end wrench (Crescent wrench), but with the jaws at a 90 degree angle to the handle. A pipe wrench, with it's loose, sharply-ridged, generally wider jaws would very likely damage or mar the assembly.

[Madcap]

Regarding the pipe and monkey wrenches - in the back of my head recognized a difference between the two but it didn't register.
As a note - I put the old spring, cardboard was packing and tip cleaner was inserted into the original generator but it still never picked up any fuel. If the fuel pickup tube might be plugged up maybe that's the cause also. It was cleaned while it was out though but then again maybe the fount still had some dirt....probably won't know much more till the replacement generator gets here.

I have a 252 mil spec with a problem also so I'll switch over to that for now.

You guys are really helpful - thanks so much and hope everyone enjoyed a good Easter.

[zoomkat]

"As a note - I put the old spring, cardboard was packing and tip cleaner was inserted into the original generator but it still never picked up any fuel."

You can take the generator off and see if fuel will flow from the valve assembly to check for lower blockage or issues. Do note that the older original generators for this type of lantern have a small screen inside the generator that can damage the pricker wire if you do not take precautions to protect the pricker upon reassembly. The pricker may have been bent in the past and it may not be cleaning the orifice.

[Murff]

Where Stewart has his pipe wrench will work, but I use a deep socket on the valve stem packing nut with a long extension as a handle for leverage.

Murff

Just to be clear, that's not a pipe wrench in my photos, it's a monkey wrench. The difference is significant in this context. A monkey wrench is like your standard adjustable end wrench (Crescent wrench), but with the jaws at a 90 degree angle to the handle. A pipe wrench, with it's loose, sharply-ridged, generally wider jaws would very likely damage or mar the assembly.

My error in calling it a pipe wrench. I also know the diiference.

I know some like photos with explanations, so...

First, here is where this wrench is handy:



To protect the tip cleaner threads when removing it from a 220 lantern:



I use an old tip cleaner assembly minus the turning wire part:



This is my "handle" for leverage when trying to loosen the burner assembly:



A strap wrench for the removal:



Some of the more members that are "engineers" have made this tool out of an old socket:





Sadly, I purchased mine from eBay.

It fits thusly:





Using this with a ratchet and extension and also using the deep socket on another extension on the valve packing nut gives you the leverage to get the tip cleaner assembly loose.

Some of us old timers learned from Frank to use as box/open end wrench with a screwdriver to loosen it:



It was best to have the work area cleared when doing this as once it broke loose, things tended to scatter.

Hope this helps a little.

Murff

[outlawmws]

Workmates are great. Very versatile, and can generally be had fairly cheap on Clist and other marketplace sites locally. I'm looking to pick up another first gen - all aluminum WM later today (fingers crossed)

Then I'll be selling off one or two of the others. I always like having two identical, as in pairs, they are VERY Handy. One will get rebuilt (needs Jaws) specifically for welding and fabricating...

The bench top versions are handy for small work. I want to build one flush into a bench top someday as a holder for bench top tools like Bench grinders, arbor presses, My reloading plate, the Miter trimmer, chop saw, miter box, etc...

They even have an 8" hobby version even smaller that has a pivot ball mount, that for light hobby work is good, but pretty useless for fount work.

There is one I don't have, and that one mounts to the wall and folds down to be less in the way. If I found one cheap I'd get it even though at the moment I don't have any available wall space...

[brokenmantle]

i usually go in at an angle with the wrench, leaving the tip cleaner in place. the frame will move with it also so be ready for that.

[Madcap]

"As a note - I put the old spring, cardboard was packing and tip cleaner was inserted into the original generator but it still never picked up any fuel."

You can take the generator off and see if fuel will flow from the valve assembly to check for lower blockage or issues. Do note that the older original generators for this type of lantern have a small screen inside the generator that can damage the pricker wire if you do not take precautions to protect the pricker upon reassembly. The pricker may have been bent in the past and it may not be cleaning the orifice.

The gen was removed and fuel flow was OK. The gen did have a screen that I removed, cleaned and reinserted with the small hole centered at the bottom of the tip. The tip cleaner, spring and tube were inserted into the generator and it was attached to the burner and connected to the seat...still nothing. I should have a another generator from OCP coming that hopefully will cure the problem.
Thanks

[Madcap]

A new 228 generator arrived and installed but apparently no fuel is making up the generator yet. Or at least from the generator and into the burner. I was beginning become confident on how diagnose and fix some of the problems but this one has me stumped. If fuel is present at the base when the valve is opened and the burner is clean and clear why isn't getting to the burner? If fuel level were too low then it wouldn't show up at the gen seat right?

[Ridge Runner]

A new 228 generator arrived and installed but apparently no fuel is making up the generator yet. Or at least from the generator and into the burner. I was beginning become confident on how diagnose and fix some of the problems but this one has me stumped. If fuel is present at the base when the valve is opened and the burner is clean and clear why isn't getting to the burner? If fuel level were too low then it wouldn't show up at the gen seat right?

How long are you waiting? It could take 30 seconds or so especially if the fount is low on fuel. Make sure it’s at least 2/3 full.

Just wondering, do you have the tip cleaner lever (handle) in the down position?

If you spin the tip cleaner lever around (and around) do you eventually get fuel at all? Some times a new genny needs a good several spins to keep the tip clear.

[Mister_Wilson]

Being lazy and not going to the top...the pricker rod is hooked into the hole at the top of the eccentric block? If not, the pricker wire will remain in the orifice blocking the fuel flow.

[Madcap]

I'll try adding more fuel and see what happens but if fuel is present at the seat, why it wouldn't it reach the burner? I'm pretty sure at least 30 sec went by also.
I checked the tip cleaner was engaged to the eccentric each time I took it off and started over but nothing changed.
As I said I'll add some more fuel and check back in back later.
Thank guys

[Ridge Runner]

Are you at least hearing the hissing sound of air escaping from the gas tip?

If so, try opening the fuel valve all the way. Any change?

[zoomkat]

"I'll try adding more fuel and see what happens but if fuel is present at the seat, why it wouldn't it reach the burner? I'm pretty sure at least 30 sec went by also."

In the 1/4 turn open to start lanterns, the fuel tank is normally assumed to be *full* providing a high static fuel level in the fuel pickup tube, which is blown up into the generator during the start sequence. With a low tank level, the static level in the fuel pickup tube is low, and may not provide sufficient fuel for a start. As the fuel control rod is in the fuel pickup orifice during the start, very little fuel from the tank will be supplied. The below picture shows how the tank level and the static fuel pickup tube level are going to be related.

[Madcap]

Ridge Runner - The burners always hissed - in fact it would blow my matches out when trying to lighting it.

zoomcat - That's a great illustration - I think it makes sense

However, I did add more fuel but still nothing but air then finally got it lit by swishing the fuel in the tank. Almost immediately I could hear spitting fuel and it fired right up and it ran well for about ten minutes before shutting off. About 30 minutes I tried it again and nothing till the fuel was swished around. It lit normally then and I ran it about 10-15 min more before shutting it down. I thought maybe the generator might need priming from the fuel pick up or something but the second time it still needed it too.

It's a pretty good looking lantern in nice condition and was satisfying to see it finally light after all this. I'm looking forward to trying it again tomorrow and see if it lights normally.

[zoomkat]

"However, I did add more fuel but still nothing but air then finally got it lit by swishing the fuel in the tank."

There is a possibility that the fuel control rod in the fuel pickup assembly is sticking and not lifting up when the fuel control valve is fully open. If you pressurize the tank, fully open the fuel control valve, then you should get raw fuel flowing fairly quickly. If only air flows and the tank depressurizes quickly, then the rod is most likely sticking. The below picture shows how the valve and fuel rod work together. If a stuck rod is suspected, I'd first try letting the pressure out of the tank. opening the fuel valve fully, then tap/bang a little on the tank with a piece of wood or small rubber hammer and see if the rod might pop loose.

[outlawmws]

Sticking or the spring is on he wrong side and keeping the rod in the "start" position...

[Madcap]

Very clear illustrations - thanks. A stuck fuel control rod sounds like a very likely solution. I'll try what you suggest and get back later.

[Madcap]

Failure to light after tapping the bottom of the fount seems to point to a restricted fuel pick up. That's the most logical at this stage I guess. I need to disassemble everything and take a look at the fuel pick up tube including the spring and lean the assembly in citrus acid.
I'll get back -

[zoomkat]

There is a possibility of making a "rake" type gizmo to get the fuel control rod to pop lose. I cut some thin metal strips from a tin cane to make a rake device to run under the fuel pickup assembly to possibly push up on the protruding tip of the fuel control rod. The strips were discarded prior to me trying them thru the fuel port and under the fuel pickup assembly. I didn't have a stuck rod at the time, so it was a low priority project.

[Madcap]

There is a possibility of making a "rake" type gizmo to get the fuel control rod to pop lose. I cut some thin metal strips from a tin cane to make a rake device to run under the fuel pickup assembly to possibly push up on the protruding tip of the fuel control rod. The strips were discarded prior to me trying them thru the fuel port and under the fuel pickup assembly. I didn't have a stuck rod at the time, so it was a low priority project.

Was the fuel pick up in the fount or removed....sorry, not clear on what you're describing.

[zoomkat]

"Was the fuel pick up in the fount or removed"

In the fount. I was looking for ways to unstick the fuel control rod without removing the valve assembly from the tank.

[Madcap]

OK, I'll give that a try, Thanks

[zoomkat]

"OK, I'll give that a try, Thanks"

You might consider making a little LED light on a small wire that can be put thru the fuel port to light the tank inside. Might make things a little easier than shining a flashlight thru the port while everything else is going on.

[Madcap]

I have a flexible bore light that might work. On another note I poured the fuel out through a coffee filter and noticed more rust than I anticipated was in there since I thought I'd cleaned it out. It's full of Evaporust now to hopefully get rid of the remaining rust. Then it'll be flushed out with water followed up with some alcohol and maybe a rinse of kerosene. That rust probably restricted the fuel pick up.

[zoomkat]

"That rust probably restricted the fuel pick up."

It is possible if there is a significant amount of loose rust on the bottom of the tank. If the fuel control rod is operating correctly, it should be clearing the fuel pickup orifice of blockage when it is pushed down as the fuel control valve is closed. If rust blockage is suspected, you could hold the lantern at a 45 deg. angle, swish the fuel around so the loose rust settles in the bottom corner of the tank, then slowly right the lantern and then try a startup. Most of the lose rust should stay at the outer rim of the tank bottom.

[Madcap]

The fount was drained of fuel and filled with some used Evaporust overnight. This morning it was poured out through a coffee filter to see how much crud was in there and it was enough to cause problems. Following that I rinsed it several times with water and more crud came out. Right now it's full of white vinegar in an effort to dissolve what remaining rust is in there and get rid of it once and for all.
I wanted to the soak the pick up and control rod in citrus acid or vinegar to completely clean the assembly but it was so tight it wouldn't budge inverted in a vice. So at this point I'll try some penetrant and maybe some heat to get it out or just reassemble and see if it'll light after the tank is clean.
I'll pour out the vinegar in awhile and try removing the fuel pick up.

[zoomkat]

" So at this point I'll try some penetrant and maybe some heat to get it out or just reassemble and see if it'll light after the tank is clean."

While you have solvents in the fuel tank, leave the fuel control valve full open so the fuel control rod spring is helping push the rod up to unstick it.

[Madcap]

After a thoroughly cleaning and rinsing the fount, everything was reassembled and fuel added. Light up was text book and she burned bright and steady....no leaks, and shut down was perfect. Rust and dirt apparently was the problem so lesson learned.
BTW just as a note this 228E date is "4 63" - I got it mixed up with a 220E dated "4 52" that needs disassembly and cleaning next.
I thank you all for the help with this 228 but if I start the 220E I may need to call you guys again. If so, I'll start another thread- till then.....

Dick

[outlawmws]