Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

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Cajuncook1
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Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#1

Post by Cajuncook1 »

Just wondering how long kerosene burns compared to RUG or CF in a stove or lamp?

Comparing equal amounts of fuel.

If anyone has knows or has tried this, please update me with your findings or documented information.

As always, I appreciate your time.
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Stovie
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#2

Post by Stovie »

Kerosene has a fair bit larger BTU content over gasoline. It "should" therefore burn longer for an equal quantity. Interesting question.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#3

Post by Gunhippie »

Using the same gen tip, it should get about the same run time. It may also over-burn the mantles. Using the proper, smaller tip (to compensate for the greater fuel value), you should get about 1/3 more time per fount full.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#4

Post by arizonacamper »

There now you've gone and done it. you're going to start another argument over Kero versus CF.🙂
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#5

Post by 74HARLEY »

Yes, argument coming...
Tip size on the generator has NOTHING to do with btu output of the fuel itself.
Tip size is based on the diameter of the generator in question, as it is a pressure vessel. The larger the tube the more pressure it builds, hence the smaller jet.
A 237 runs just fine and bright on c/f without changing the tip.
If btus' equalled light output you would all be running diesel.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#6

Post by Stovie »

74HARLEY wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:21 pm Tip size on the generator has NOTHING to do with btu output of the fuel itself.


The orifice size is designed for optimal fuel burning. Similar to a carburetor jet. Gasoline and diesel and kerosene are different, therefore they have different size jets.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#7

Post by 74HARLEY »

All things being equal I would agree. However you must take into account operating pressure inside the generator itself. Since the kero gen has a larger volume of fluid and a larger diameter tube, it will create more pressure.thus a smaller is needed.
By your theory, a 237 should not run correctly on c/f because it would be starving for fuel. However that doesn't seem to happen.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#8

Post by 74HARLEY »

By the way, I MEAN NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE regarding their own views.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#9

Post by Chucker »

There are way too many variables between running kero vs.CF that make this a fools errand to answer with much accuracy, IMO.

Yes, kero gens use smaller orifices IF...we are doing a one on one comparison with a CF lantern with similar characteristics i.e. fount size, gen diameter, air tube comparison, candle power rated output, etc.

In addition we could add as a variable; retained heat by the frame and fount, using a vent vs. no vent, running an Amish mix, and we will get into the weeds where accuracy in BTU's (not real useful unless we are talking heaters) and candle power is concerned.

OP, I suggest you grab two comparable CF and kero lanterns, maybe a Coleman 214 and 286, fill them, use the same number of pumps, same mantles, and you'll get close to having a 'good' answer.
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#10

Post by Stovie »

Shouldn't we make a distinction between opinions or views and simple plain facts?

I don't mean any disrespect either.

Using a gasoline jet orifice in a stove and running kerosene, and it will run well on the rich side and waste fuel. Why would a lantern be any different? Any device will run more efficiently with an optimum air/fuel ratio. In the case of stoves a nice rich blue flame is just about perfect, or near enough. See where I'm goin' with that?
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#11

Post by MYN927 »

With all things more or less equal, the burn time for kerosene, gasoline and CF will be almost similar.
Its basically determined by the gas tip orifice size.
How well they burn is another matter.
For example, you can burn all the three different fuels in a perfectly working Coleman 237. With a 0.0085" diameter gas tip orifice, it was designed to burn kerosene with optimal fuel-air ratio for maximum candle power. If either gasoline or CF is used instead, the light output is somewhat reduced because their specific energy contents are lower than that of kero. The air intake remains pretty much the same. The fuel consumption in gallons per hour would still be the same.
To provide equal light output as kero when using RUG or CF, you'd need to increase the gas tip orifice diameter to 0.009 or 0.0095". In this case, the fuel consumption per hour would also be increased.
Just compare a 237 on kero with a 236 on CF. They are basically both 500cp lanterns and quite similar to each other. The 236 would run out of fuel sooner than a 237(with pressure carefully maintained with equal pumps for both).
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#12

Post by MYN927 »

My last statement isn't quite correct. You can't maintain equal pressures for both the 237(on kero) and 236 (on CF/RUG) with èqual pumps. That's because you'd need more frequent pumping on the 236 to maintain a pressure that's equal to that in a 237.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#13

Post by Cajuncook1 »

Oh, sorry. I didn't mean cause a raucous. I was reading about kerosene. I got the impression it burn a bit hotter and a bit longer that CF or RUG. So, I placed inquiry.

Alot good points and explanations.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#14

Post by Phredd »

Sound to me like everyone is correct.

Therefore, we all need to go out and light a lantern - kero or CF (but maybe not RUG...)

Here's my favorite 237 running a Amish mix

:)
temp 237.jpg
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#15

Post by Cajuncook1 »

Chucker wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:33 am There are way too many variables between running kero vs.CF that make this a fools errand to answer with much accuracy, IMO.

Yes, kero gens use smaller orifices IF...we are doing a one on one comparison with a CF lantern with similar characteristics i.e. fount size, gen diameter, air tube comparison, candle power rated output, etc.

In addition we could add as a variable; retained heat by the frame and fount, using a vent vs. no vent, running an Amish mix, and we will get into the weeds where accuracy in BTU's (not real useful unless we are talking heaters) and candle power is concerned.

OP, I suggest you grab two comparable CF and kero lanterns, maybe a Coleman 214 and 286, fill them, use the same number of pumps, same mantles, and you'll get close to having a 'good' answer.
That would be an excellent trial, as soon as as I build up a collection. Of similar Lanterns.

All I have right now :(

1947 Coleman 242C Single mantle
1973 Coleman 228F under Fettling process
1969 Coleman 220F as give a away along with an M1950 stove purchase recently. Ants had made a home in and around (the lantern)...that poor thing. So it’s up next for repairs.
1971 and 1974 Coleman 502 stoves
1967 Coleman 413G stove
1975 Coleman 425 stove
1981 M1950 Fiesta unfired single burner stove(display)
1981 M1950 Fiesta user stove.....awaiting postal arrival from The Bay.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#16

Post by Cajuncook1 »

Phredd wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:29 am Sound to me like everyone is correct.

Therefore, we all need to go out and light a lantern - kero or CF (but maybe not RUG...)

Here's my favorite 237 running a Amish mix

:)

temp 237.jpg

Wow, that is very nicely conditioned and a beauty!!!!
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#17

Post by Chucker »

I found I had the most fun with my kero and CF lantern's when I experimented. I highly recommend it.

Both kero and CF (RUG too) have their idiosyncrasies depending on model's, fuel used, generator's used, etc. that make them fun or interesting for one person, not so much for another. And that's okay in my book. '

My current personal high candle power favorite, to meet my expectation's, is a 639 which run's kero or CF whenever I ask it to. I treasure my 237's so don't want to run them much.

Use what interests you or makes sense.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#18

Post by Tgarner01 »

Hard to beat a big kero burner that will burn whatever you ask it too.

Image
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#19

Post by Gunhippie »

Did you say big kero burner?

Image

I swap the 237 gen tip out for one from a 236 or 502 for gasoline use.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#20

Post by Cajuncook1 »

Gunhippie wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:13 am Did you say big kero burner?

Image

I swap the 237 gen tip out for one from a 236 or 502 for gasoline use.

Will a 237 gen tip give good kerosene burning performance on a Coleman 502 stove if the tip is placed on a 502 generator? Just don’t want an over heat issue.


Oh, by the way guys I appreciate all your advice, education and input!
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#21

Post by JimL »

>>Will a 237 gen tip give good kerosene burning performance on a Coleman 502 stove if the tip is placed on a 502 generator?

Are you making your own replacement pricker rod with a smaller tip cleaning wire needed to accommodate the smaller tip orifice of the 237 generator? If so, then maybe, but I haven't tried it.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#22

Post by JimL »

>>Just don’t want an over heat issue.

I didn't address the above in my prior post, but that is a possible concern. I made the post below a couple of years ago, but I cannot find it searching the forum so I'll repost here. Since the flame isn't contained, I don't know if kero would make the 502 even hotter overall, but I'd be curious about that if switching to kero.
------------
From the summer of 2019:

Anyone with a 502 knows that these things run hot and are therefore pretty much self-pressurizing.
Lately I've been doing a lot of cooking outside with my stoves so the AC isn't fighting the extra heat. I
cooked on a 502 earlier and then decided to boil up some citric with the rusted M-1942 case in the pan.
Since the stove was running a loooong time, I decided to grab the laser thermometer and satisfy my
curiosity. Although temps fluctuated with the gauge, it still said things were pretty hot. Here's what I
observed for anyone curious:

All temps Farenheit:

Valve knob 200
Valve nut 207
Collar 238
Upper fount 191
Fuel cap 185
Mid fount 166
Fount base 153
Back of bunsen 342
Burner bowl 591
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#23

Post by Gunhippie »

JimL wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:11 am >>Will a 237 gen tip give good kerosene burning performance on a Coleman 502 stove if the tip is placed on a 502 generator?

Are you making your own replacement pricker rod with a smaller tip cleaning wire needed to accommodate the smaller tip orifice of the 237 generator? If so, then maybe, but I haven't tried it.
Agreed. The pricker rod is what regulates the heat on a 502, so would need to fit the smaller orifice.

Also, all the straight-gen kero stoves I've seen have had the "wings" on the gen. You could fab those out of a sheet of copper. IIRC, for suitcase stoves, folks converting to kero also found that wrapping the burner manifold in fiberglass insulation made anything less than full-out possible.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#24

Post by Cajuncook1 »

JimL wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:11 am >>Will a 237 gen tip give good kerosene burning performance on a Coleman 502 stove if the tip is placed on a 502 generator?

Are you making your own replacement pricker rod with a smaller tip cleaning wire needed to accommodate the smaller tip orifice of the 237 generator? If so, then maybe, but I haven't tried it.

I was thinking about getting a 237 Lantern generator and using the generator tip on the 502 generator. Also, if the diameter of the needle from the 237 gen is not too large, I would measure it and cut to size to fit the 502 generator.

I was also thinking about wrapping copper wire around outside of the modified 502 generator to help with increase heat absorption for kerosene vaporization.

Prime with alcohol in the burner base or use fire paste. Once hot enough, light it up and see how it runs.

If it runs ok, then carefully monitor the heat output and adjust as necessary. See if safe to run wide open or max 3/4 throttle to keep an over heat situation from happening.

If you guys think this has merit then I will order a 237 generator.

With these changes, then I can always revert back to CF and replace the original tip and needle and remove the extra external coil copper wire around the generator.
Last edited by Cajuncook1 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#25

Post by Gunhippie »

Here's a 344 Coleman Marine kerosene stove:

Image

You can see the "wings" on the straight gen. That's a single piece of copper or brass sheet, formed to fit tightly over the gen tube. Apparently, it's needed as it's what Coleman used.

I looked at a tron-down 502 I have. The pricker needle is a simple straight wire, so making a 237 pricker fit should work.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#26

Post by Cajuncook1 »

Thanks for the visual of the "wings" you were describing.

Just ordered the 237 generator and a couple other spare parts.

Cheers
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#27

Post by ak74u137 »

Kerosene gen tips are a bit smaller then CF tips. They should get better runtime but I haven't tested this theory.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#28

Post by Gunhippie »

Cajuncook1 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:54 pm Thanks for the visual of the "wings" you were describing.

Just ordered the 237 generator and a couple other spare parts.

Cheers
Sorry to come back so late, but the 237 gen has a larger tube and gen nut. I don't think it will fit the valve end of the stove. Pretty sure about that. Perhaps you can crimp and then flare the end of the tube to fit, but that would make it hard to clean--and you need to clean a straight kero gen frequently.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#29

Post by JimL »

I guess I have to ask why you want to run a 502 on kero. Is this just an experiment or do you want to switch to kero? If just an experiment, why not try the 502 on kero as it is?

>>Also, if the diameter of the needle from the 237 gen is not too large, I would measure it and cut to size to fit the 502 generator.

I don't have a 237, but I would not have thought that the generator and pricker rod would be long enough for the 502 generator. According to the tip charts, the 237 generator and 502 generator both have 4/48 threads, so I suspect the tip will be swappable.



Timm,

I suspect those wings are not copper, but rather brass. Copper doesn't seem to hold up too well sitting in flames for a long duration.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#30

Post by Gunhippie »

502 vs. 237 gen:

Image
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#31

Post by JimL »

Thanks for posting that Timm. It's the opposite of what I expected. With the 237 being longer, the pricker rod from the 237 can be used once cut down and a bend put in for the eccentric. This is getting interesting and I look forward to the results of the kero run.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#32

Post by Cajuncook1 »

JimL wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:19 pm Thanks for posting that Timm. It's the opposite of what I expected. With the 237 being longer, the pricker rod from the 237 can be used once cut down and a bend put in for the eccentric. This is getting interesting and I look forward to the results of the kero run.
Thanks Gunnhippie and JimL!

Using the 237 gen tip and cutting down down the 237 needle to fit the 502 generator is exactly what I had plan to do.

The reason I plan to run Coleman 502 on kerosene was for experimentation and also to see if it could safely be run on kerosene without over burn.

Kerosene is a lot safer on boats 🚣‍♀️. Late fall fishing might not be so chilly :)

I’m hoping this simple conversation will allow the Coleman 502 some flexibility and safety in regards to Kerosene. Easy to covert back.

Would like to see if there is longer run times with the same amount of fuel.

Yes, I hope this fun experiment. Care will be taken and the extinguisher at the ready :)
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#33

Post by JimL »

>>Using the 237 gen tip and cutting down down the 237 needle to fit the 502 generator is exactly what I had plan to do.

What do you mean by cutting down the needle?
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#34

Post by Cajuncook1 »

JimL wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:38 am >>Using the 237 gen tip and cutting down down the 237 needle to fit the 502 generator is exactly what I had plan to do.

What do you mean by cutting down the needle?
Sorry poor choice of words. I meant the pricker rod.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#35

Post by JimL »

I figured that's what you meant, but I'm asking what you mean by cutting it down. The 237 pricker wire will obviously fit the 237 orifice. If you mean making it shorter, are 237 tip wires longer than they are on a 502 cleaning rod? Keeping in mind that the 502 relies on that wire to adjust the flame output.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#36

Post by kellyblues »

Well???? 502 on kero yet? Inquiring minds want to know!
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#37

Post by Cajuncook1 »

Waiting for some 12 gauge brass wire to arrive. I will wrap it around the generator to help with heat absorption and retention for the kerosene burn.

I will use the same stove and same amount of fuel for each test.

CF
RUG
Kerosene

When it comes to the Kersene. I will be changing the tip, adding the modified 237 pricker to fit the 502 generator, and add the brass coil on top of the same generator.

I will clean the generator in between each test.

Looking forward to this test :)
Last edited by Cajuncook1 on Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#38

Post by Chucker »

Sounds like a plan! Looking forward to your findings.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#39

Post by Dmacp »

Using a gasoline jet orifice in a stove and running kerosene, and it will run well on the rich side and waste fuel. Why would a lantern be any different? Any device will run more efficiently with an optimum air/fuel ratio. In the case of stoves a nice rich blue flame is just about perfect, or near enough. See where I'm goin' with that?
Yes. The air is not metered. There is excess air but it mixes with the fuel stoichiometrically. Many Kerosene lanterns use air restrictors, like the 427K. There are many different designs and they as different as they are numerous.

I cannot say how many times I have read of someone complaining about a smelly lantern, complaining that the mixture is too rich, then start screwing around with the jets. The smell is coming from raw mixture leaking into the exhaust stream from a loose slip joint or threaded connection, not a rich mixture
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StanDahl
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#40

Post by StanDahl »

For whatever it's worth, running my 234 single mantle on CF with a 200A generator works perfectly. Running kerosene with the same generator works fine for about 3 minutes, then the mantle begins to blacken and then it smokes and I don't know what happens after that because I've never let it go that far. It burns rich with that generator tip and kerosene. (It is a basic 200A generator, not a 201 with a coiled spring, so maybe that has an effect.)

Putting a 5120 tip (smaller orifice) on the 200A generator allows it to run kerosene very nicely. Would that impact the fuel consumption? I would think it would, but I haven't tested it. It seems like the same pressure, although I don't measure it. I've never had the patience to run a 10-14 hour burn test. The interesting (and frustrating) thing about physics is that so often a phenomenon can run exactly opposite of expectations until you dig deeper into the theory and realize why.
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#41

Post by Deanofid »

Cajuncook1 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:41 pm Oh, sorry. I didn't mean cause a raucous. I was reading about kerosene. I got the impression it burn a bit hotter and a bit longer that CF or RUG. So, I placed inquiry.
Alot good points and explanations.
No ruckus going on here so far. Your comment above is the last I have read yet in this thread, and the reason we are here is to discuss things. So far, so good. Keep on, Cajun. I'll put my two bits in later, or tomorrow. I'm catching up on the forum today after a long work week.

(Just a teaser: kero makes more light [or heat, whatever] per ounce than CF. Remember, I haven't read past post #13 yet.)

Dean 19:00 hrs, 4/24/21
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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#42

Post by JimL »

It's been a while. What's the latest on your kero experiment with the 502?
-Jim

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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#43

Post by Cajuncook1 »

JimL wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:46 am It's been a while. What's the latest on your kero experiment with the 502?
Hey Jim, thanks for inquiring. I work in a hospital so we have to sometimes to do on call for support on our "off days".

So, if I get a call, I have to drop what I am doing and go to the hospital.

Also the weather has been a bit stormy and windy. I want to complete remainder of the experiment in the back yard in case things dont go as planned. 😊

So to complete the remainder of the experiment I need about 5 to 6 hours of uninterrupted time and a little decent weather.

I am hoping to resume sometime next week :)
Cheers,

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Re: Does kerosene burn longer that RUG or CF?

#44

Post by Jeepstircrazy »

Gunhippie wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:55 pm 502 vs. 237 gen:

Image
Not trying to hijack this thread ... but Timm? Is that stove generator comparable to a 249 gen? Do you have a 249 to compare it to? I am looking for a 249 generator and it would be awesome if that stove gen would do the trick. Oops! just read thread #28 and I see you said the tubes are a different diameter... disregard...
Wayne signing off...

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