thread tinning

Post your tech questions here, lots of knowledge available.
Post Reply
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

thread tinning

#1

Post by ecblanks »

A couple years ago a member suggested thread tinning to help with a wiggly, over clocked valve. I've had some success with soldering recently and I got some spare valves for my 530 from KansasJohn, so thought I'd give it a try.
The results were not was i was hoping for. Despite my best flux application and even heating, it did not flash much at all.
Any tips are appreciated. I'm trying to bulk up my threads so I don't have to rely on loctite.
Also I saw the threads on my AGM "523" had been tinned so got me in the mood.
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: thread tinning

#2

Post by ecblanks »

Oh and google gives me NO hits on this. Just wire tinning.
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
zoomkat
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1752
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:17 pm

Re: thread tinning

#3

Post by zoomkat »

" I'm trying to bulk up my threads so I don't have to rely on loctite."

You might search for "tinning flux" which has some solder mixed in with the flux, such as Oatey tinning flux. Just use enough to add a little solder to provide some resistance, and then use a non hardening pipe dope for the sealing.
User avatar
JimL
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 6575
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: thread tinning

#4

Post by JimL »

I've done it with a 200A valve. It did go on thin, but it was enough to give me a snug fit. Regardless, if I did it again, I'd also go with the thread locker, or even skip the tinning and just use the thread locker. Maybe the solder I used was not the best for the application, but it still won't be hard like the brass, and thread locker seems to give me a tighter fit.
-Jim

I threw a boomerang a couple years ago; I now live in constant fear.

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: thread tinning

#5

Post by ecblanks »

Thanks, Jim. I usually use loctite blue but I don't love to rely on it for structural strength; at least not for my regular users. Especially on the 530 where that valve gets HOT and I read that loctite blue starts to loosen at 300 degrees.
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
User avatar
JimL
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 6575
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: thread tinning

#6

Post by JimL »

I understand that concern, but I would think that at worst case, if it began giving, you'd start losing pressure but not fast enough to possibly have a flame there.

I guess I'll have to experiment with one of my 530's to see for myself how hot it gets, but can't imagine it getting as hot as a 502. Not really relevant to this topic since I didn't use thread locker, but below are the temps I measured on a 502. All temps are Farenheit.
Valve knob 200
Valve nut 207
Collar 238
Upper fount 191
Fuel cap 185
Mid fount 166
Fount base 153
Back of bunsen 342
Burner bowl 591
-Jim

I threw a boomerang a couple years ago; I now live in constant fear.

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?
User avatar
Tgarner01
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 5922
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:47 pm

Re: thread tinning

#7

Post by Tgarner01 »

ecblanks wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:13 pm Thanks, Jim. I usually use loctite blue but I don't love to rely on it for structural strength; at least not for my regular users. Especially on the 530 where that valve gets HOT and I read that loctite blue starts to loosen at 300 degrees.
That's getting close to some soft solder melting points also so choose it wisely.
Toby Garner, from SW Missouri
ICCC #1939
MYN927
Serious Colemanaholic
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:31 am

Re: thread tinning

#8

Post by MYN927 »

You can try some reactive(acidic zinc chloride) flux if the tin is not wetting the threads. They are vastly different from the resin flux.
If Loctite blue(242 or 243) isn't ideal for high temperature, you might want to check out Loctite 5770. The latter is suitable for higher temperatures, medium strength just like the blue one and its both a thread sealant and threadlock.
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: thread tinning

#9

Post by ecblanks »

MYN927 wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 1:51 pm You can try some reactive(acidic zinc chloride) flux if the tin is not wetting the threads. They are vastly different from the resin flux.
If Loctite blue(242 or 243) isn't ideal for high temperature, you might want to check out Loctite 5770. The latter is suitable for higher temperatures, medium strength just like the blue one and its both a thread sealant and threadlock.
Yes I used a zinc chorlide. I've had to do bung repair and a brass rejoin that worked great. The flux is a slighly gellish liquid that I paint on all threads with model paint brush. I heated the valve, not the threads, then touched the solder (50/50) to the thread and they immediately globbed, whereas on my other efforts it flashed around.
Maybe I got it too hot and burned off the flux too much?
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
User avatar
Hot_Diggity
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1934
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:43 pm

Re: thread tinning

#10

Post by Hot_Diggity »

Solder.jpg
This is what I use for just about everything from airbags to CQ founts. The key to tinning is to have the part completely clean before applying flux. Try it on a practice piece. You should only have to heat the first few threads, and when the solder melts it will flow down the threads and get thicker as it reaches the cooler metal. Clean, bare metal before flux is essential.

Don't believe that "Cleans as it fluxes" advertising. It's like the "New grape scent" on GM gear oil labels.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Chuck, 3/61, ICCC 1689
Milspec Syndicate #510
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate #0510
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #12
BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #510
Coleman Slant Saver #510
Frank Appreciation Syndicate Member #2
Tinker, Toy maker, Trash picker, Wickie, Lamp loon
Phredd
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1046
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:44 pm

Re: thread tinning

#11

Post by Phredd »

Carlton have you tried a tin based flux. It supposed to for better on brass. And maybe use silver solder?

Phredd
ICCC#1799
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #40
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: thread tinning

#12

Post by ecblanks »

I got them pretty clean. Dremeled the crap out of them with a stripping wheel then vigorous acetone wipe.
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
User avatar
Hot_Diggity
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1934
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:43 pm

Re: thread tinning

#13

Post by Hot_Diggity »

Just one thought Carlton. Check your solder to be sure it isn't "lead free" stuff for modern drinking water systems. I believe it requires a special flux, and is pretty much useless without it. I will buy up every roll of solder I can find in a thrift store or yard sale for $1.

Lead-free? That's like meatless hamburgers and non-alcoholic beer.
Chuck, 3/61, ICCC 1689
Milspec Syndicate #510
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate #0510
Coleman Quick Lite Crew #12
BernzOmatic Appreciation Club #510
Coleman Slant Saver #510
Frank Appreciation Syndicate Member #2
Tinker, Toy maker, Trash picker, Wickie, Lamp loon
User avatar
JimL
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 6575
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: thread tinning

#14

Post by JimL »

>> I will buy up every roll of solder I can find in a thrift store or yard sale for $1.

+1 And estate sales! However, now that I have a lifetime supply of dollar rolls in various diameters, I likely won't get any more.
-Jim

I threw a boomerang a couple years ago; I now live in constant fear.

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?
User avatar
JimL
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 6575
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: thread tinning

#15

Post by JimL »

>>I heated the valve, not the threads, then touched the solder (50/50) to the thread and they immediately globbed,

Sounds like the threads weren't hot enough. For stuff like this, I prefer a butane torch and it would be directly on the threads. Work your way around the threads with the torch and the solder should flow/follow it.
-Jim

I threw a boomerang a couple years ago; I now live in constant fear.

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?
MYN927
Serious Colemanaholic
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:31 am

Re: thread tinning

#16

Post by MYN927 »

Carlton,
The threads need to be hot enough for things to work. Is the flux paste similar to the greasy-waxy types that repels water? Those are used frequently in soldering work. They might not be the ones I mentioned earlier. The ones I was referring to as acidic flux is a liquid that might contain a little muriatic or other acids in addition to zinc chloride. These would clean degreased brass upon contact to a copperish color, even without heating. Its more of the gutter work and sheet metal jointing type. With a powerful electric(250-500W) soldering gun or rod, the 50/50 solder would flash and wet all heated surfaces on the spot. That's even when adjacent areas remaining relatively cool to touch. I'd repeat that the flux starts working upon contact even without heating. They do not burst into flames when heated with a propane torch.
User avatar
JimL
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 6575
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: thread tinning

#17

Post by JimL »

Carlton,

>>Especially on the 530 where that valve gets HOT and I read that loctite blue starts to loosen at 300 degrees.

I don't know why your 530 would be running so hot. I just did a test with one of my 530's by putting a pan of water on and letting it boil for over a half-hour. Temps are in Farenheit. Ambient temp was 59 degrees.

Mid-frame supports hit a max of 120
Gen nut max 206
Pricker rod 160
Outer edge of valve knob 108 (hotter towards center where the screw is)
Valve where it enters the bung 180 Note that this is a good distance away from the burner.
Fount never got hot, but good and warm. 82 max. It was actually cooling down during the first half of the test due to the ambient temp.

I was actually surprised how 'cool' this stove ran. Based on your comment, I was expecting temps like I was getting with the 502, but not at all. I hadn't measured this before so I found it interesting. Also interesting is how fast the stove cools off after shutdown. Pretty much the same rapid cooldown as with an M-1950. I personally would not be concerned with using a blue thread locker.
-Jim

I threw a boomerang a couple years ago; I now live in constant fear.

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: thread tinning

#18

Post by ecblanks »

JimL wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:58 am Carlton,

>>Especially on the 530 where that valve gets HOT and I read that loctite blue starts to loosen at 300 degrees.

I don't know why your 530 would be running so hot. I just did a test with one of my 530's by putting a pan of water on and letting it boil for over a half-hour. Temps are in Farenheit. Ambient temp was 59 degrees.
Probably should have stipulated that I was assuming my valve was getting close to 300; I ran no tests. THanks for this , this is very reassuring.

I'm also getting to the bottom of my tinning woes. I think I am getting it plenty hot, but I also think I'm raising the heat too slowly and the flux is running away from the target area (to where, I'm not sure). This was on the first valve I was working on and this was the best I could get it, even after several clean, reflux, reheats.
PXL_20210504_210858485.jpg
I ended up getting a good clocking despite the mess, but I couldn't use this valve because the valve orifice was not perfectly round and I crushed my packing trying to force it. On to valve #2 (tested the packing PRIOR to on this one).
Very clean threads(I think)!
PXL_20210504_212311282.jpg
But the result was even worse;
PXL_20210504_221343886.jpg

This, again, was in the vertical position. So cleaned it, refluxed, set it in the horizontal position (with globs on top) and applied direct flame and it smoothed out nicely and quickly. Gravity helping me this time.
PXL_20210505_131506283.jpg
Unfortunately I either didn't add enough bulk, or didn't add the solder far enough up the threads. I got frustrated and quit last night so I'll try again today, but I'll definitely be going back to the thread locker in addition to whatever tinning I do.
Thanks for all the tips!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
MYN927
Serious Colemanaholic
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:31 am

Re: thread tinning

#19

Post by MYN927 »

You'd eventually get it smoothened out. It just requires some practice. Clamp the valve on a vise with the tapered end on top. Heat it evenly and sufficiently and remove the flame. Apply the flux, immediately followed by the solder/tin. You should be able to see the de-oxidizing with copper color showing up and the tin should melt and instantly smoothen on contact with the valve threads(with flame removed). If it doesn't, and you need a direct flame to start the melting, then the threads ain't hot enough for the task.
Its actually a brief process. If its taking a while(too long), then you won't get a nice outcome because the flux will run, vaporize or burn off and there'll be too much scale formation for the tin to wet the surface.
If all else fails, just a piece of thread and some pipe dope would still get you a pretty snug fit.
User avatar
ak74u137
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:13 pm

Re: thread tinning

#20

Post by ak74u137 »

There is thread sealant that you can use.
No lantern left behind! :D
ICCC Membership - #2048
zoomkat
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1752
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:17 pm

Re: thread tinning

#21

Post by zoomkat »

If I was facing an overclocking issue, I'd first just use some Teflon tape to add some bulk to the thread interface to get the desired valve assembly position. The tape approach would probably also minimize the possibility of rendering the valve assembly unusable.
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: thread tinning

#22

Post by ecblanks »

zoomkat wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 5:02 pm If I was facing an overclocking issue, I'd first just use some Teflon tape to add some bulk to the thread interface to get the desired valve assembly position. The tape approach would probably also minimize the possibility of rendering the valve assembly unusable.
THanks zoomkat, I may give tape a try. The soldering won't make the valve unusable, but yeah I'll have make some effort to clean it off.
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
User avatar
Ridge Runner
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1803
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:39 pm

Re: thread tinning

#23

Post by Ridge Runner »

Carlton, do you know what size threads those are? Are they 1/8" - 27 NPT?
— L.J.
In the foothills of the Berkshires, Western Massachusetts

Wanted: 10/2015 & 1/2020 Bday Lanterns
I love the smell of naphtha in the morning!
"Ain’t no need to watch where I’m goin’; just need to know where I’ve been" -Tow Mater
zoomkat
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1752
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:17 pm

Re: thread tinning

#24

Post by zoomkat »

"The soldering won't make the valve unusable, but yeah I'll have make some effort to clean it off."

There is copper solder braid that removes solder, but you probably can do the same with very fine steel wool. Melt the solder, then twist the wool around the threaded area to pickup the solder. Heavy leather gloves highly recommended.
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: thread tinning

#25

Post by ecblanks »

Ridge Runner wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:02 pm Carlton, do you know what size threads those are? Are they 1/8" - 27 NPT?
No idea!

My most recent effort got 'er done. Orienting the valve horizontally works much better(for me) than vertically. I got good tightness on the valve and no leakage, but will probably take it back off and add some loctite for added security.
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
User avatar
JimL
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 6575
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: thread tinning

#26

Post by JimL »

If you take it back off to add thread locker, you'll likely need to re-solder if you want that seal also. I still say that even if you had a leak there, it would be so small that the possibility of a flame is virtually non-existant unless you did something to really open a gap. There's a pretty good distance between the burner and the bung on the 530.

Edit: If you remove the valve and screw it right back in, you'll better understand my comment about needed to re-solder it. I personally just use blue thread locker now rather than soldering the threads.
-Jim

I threw a boomerang a couple years ago; I now live in constant fear.

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?
User avatar
ecblanks
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: thread tinning

#27

Post by ecblanks »

Yes, Jim, I noticed that on previous attempts. I did a test fire and didn't have any issues (bucket was standing by), so I'll probably leave it for now, with a note.
Carlton
Coleman 275 Appreciation Syndicate # 0176
Slant Saver #29
Mil-Spec Ops #0973
ICCC Member #1892 (expired)
User avatar
JimL
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 6575
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Re: thread tinning

#28

Post by JimL »

Unless you had a bad leak, I can't imagine getting a flame that would last but a second. It's at the top of the fount, so it's air and not liquid fuel. And unless you shook it up first, there may not be enough fumes to ignite. When you pump it up, you're putting the fresh air to the top of the fount. Make no mistake, no one is more paranoid of an uncontrollable fire than I am, but I'm that confident of this. Heck, I've got a 200 that lives outside with a slight air leak. The lantern gets used almost nightly, and it's not an issue. I may get around to fixing it someday, but the priority is extremely low.
-Jim

I threw a boomerang a couple years ago; I now live in constant fear.

Flammable liquids, open flame, what could go wrong?
newenglandhiker
Junior Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:43 pm

Re: thread tinning

#29

Post by newenglandhiker »

Just happened to be reading L.J.'s entry from last year about his overhaul of a 247. It has some good pix of him retinning both female & male threading and they might help you out. I'm afraid I have a similar project on my own 247, so I'm all ears...

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19036&p=296931&hil ... ar#p296931
- Mark F.
from eastern Mass.
Majicwrench
Super Colemanaholic
Posts: 3227
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:33 pm

Re: thread tinning

#30

Post by Majicwrench »

Glad to hear you are gettin it done. I'm late to the party, but you were not getting it hot enough initially. Glob is never good, as others have said get it hot enough that solder FLOWS when touched to the thread.
Keith
Post Reply