Concept Generator

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Nevada_Ed
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#1

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Kicking around today and got to work on something I had been thinking about. Here is my concept generator for a 201 style kerosene generator. What I wanted was more surface area, more filter and longer life. There are pictures to show it, but the idea is to cause the fuel to travel out of the inter tube at the bottom to the outside tube and back into the inner tube at the top. You can see the travel path in the two each holes in the bottom and two more in the top. A fine mesh brass screen was used inside the smaller tube at the top, below that I used some fiber from a 5101 generator and pushed and packed it snugly just above the two lower holes in the inter tube, this causes the fuel to take the long path out of the inner tube to the outer tube. This generator is made up using a hard solder, silver solder substitute (a much higher temperature solder), no place for soft solder here. I will have to make up a horseshoe pre-heater for it but it is working quite well. Took about an hour to make it up, and partly that was stopping to take pictures, lol. Ed

Top and bottom holes are on opposite sides of the inner tube. Ready to braze: Turbo-torch and special brazing rod: Both ends brazed, this is red hot brazing, just a little more heat and the metal melts: Ready to assemble: Running on 100% kerosene very nicely, no pulsing, bright: Running a couple of hours here: Maybe now missing pics.
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gen-19.jpg

Ed

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#2

Post by DaveD »

Nice job! Do you know if it is possible to use a 249 large gen in a 242 conversion?
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#3

Post by Nevada_Ed »

The valve assembly is different on the 249, larger generator, and nut. Also the 249 fount has a larger bung than the 242 so it can not be used either.

Ed

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#4

Post by highdesert »

That's some good stuff you're doing Ed. I like the theory behind it and the execution even better. You're running that on kero, correct?

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#5

Post by libsead »

That is great Ed. With this set up how often do you think you will have to clean the generator?

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#6

Post by Jim_l »

It seems there'd be no practical way to clean between the two tubes. Wonder how long it'd burn before carboning up. You'd think quite a while with the larger size.
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#7

Post by BCosby »

Did you put any packing in the outer tube?
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#8

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Thanks Shaun, yes 100% kerosene, I added a note to the picture of it burning about the kerosene. Has a worn #3 nozzle and running a bit on the hot side, may change the nozzle to a new #3 or a TI, it is filling out a #99 mantle just fine. I am going to make a few more, want to try/test one out for me? Next time you are near here stop by and pick one up.

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#9

Post by StanDahl »

I don't get it. What is the purpose of the outer tube? Why are the holes you drilled so close to each other, and at the high end of the outer tube? What goes on inside the outer tube?
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#10

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Bryan, no packing in the outer tube, thought about some of the brass mesh, maybe on the next one.

Ryan, I had to pre-heat with the torch, will get a u-shaped heat cup for it later.

John, the fuel travels out the bottom holes to the larger surface area and to the opposite side and back in at the top, the purpose is longer travel and more surface area to gunk up before it jams up. Surface area wise there is a lot more surface in that larger piece of tubing, as well as the surface of the outside of the inter tube. The center tube path is blocked with thick packing just above the lower holes.

Jim, no practical way to clean it no, but if it lasts a long time as I hope it will, it will have served its purpose. I am already considering one size larger tubing.

Also I choose two holes, top and bottom, just to be sure there was plenty of path for longevity, maybe one larger hole upper and lower would work just as well.

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#11

Post by StanDahl »

Okay, I missed the lower hole on the opposite side.
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#12

Post by Murff »

Do I hear the engineers at Coleman calling you, Ed?

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#13

Post by highdesert »

Now you need to add some fins Ed. More heating area. Like the 238 I think it was?

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#14

Post by Scouterjan »

Ed, thats really great, try and find yourself a horseshoe cup from a P Max clone, they have a built in mounting tab, thats the cup I used on my Monster Mil Spec
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#15

Post by brucesheehe »

If there were any question about Ed's genius level IQ, this should answer it. Brilliant!

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#16

Post by SteveRetherford »

pretty ingenious , this just goes to show you AGAIN how much Ed likes his Kerosene . he dreams like a Coleman engineer .

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#17

Post by curtludwig »

Ed, is that copper tubing? Is there any danger of rupture? I don't know what kind of pressure copper is good for.

What if you used a cutting wheel to make a horizontal slot instead of drilling holes? Seems like you'd want as much of an opening as possible while keeping it near the ends..

It also seems like you could just cut the top and bottom off the starter generator and braze them to the new one giving you all that surface area without the complication of the inner tube, it'd be more difficult to align but I suspect you could make a jig for it, you seem like a clever guy . With that method it'd be possible to clean somewhat and extend the life of your handywork.

Good job! Send me one, I'll make a video with it.

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#18

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Curt, brass as an alloy is stronger than copper, but at least here the copper wall is a good bit thicker than the brass wall of the generator, also brass has a melting point at about 1700 degrees F. and copper just under 2000 degrees F. So I am thinking it will do ok. I did think about splicing the ends only, lower and upper, but got to thinking since the stock generator gets used anyway and needs a guide for the pricker, I could use that inter piece as my filter holder, even change the filter if needed, so I decided there may be advantages to making it up the way I did it.

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#19

Post by StanDahl »

I would have done that and then realized later that I forgot to put the nut on before I did all of that brazing!
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#20

Post by Christopher_OR »

Wow to the whole project. Good on ya for taking this on and posting the results!

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#21

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Yes indeed Enrico, good observation and I have been looking in my tool box for something that lent itself to that very thing. I am going to resolve that before I make another. I already used the drill press chuck and key to narrow the ends, but need something more symmetrical.

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#22

Post by curtludwig »

Hey Ed,
I figured the thickness of the copper would make up for it being weaker than the brass, just something to think about...


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#23

Post by Jim_l »

I though it was determined in some other threads that copper was too weak. Can't remember what threads it was in.


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#24

Post by Nevada_Ed »

There has been a lot of good input and questions here, thank you all for the interest and help.

Jim, I don't know for sure on copper as a material, here I used it as it is readily available and I have some confidence in it due to the thickness of what I am using. In the longer term, after proof of concept, I might consider purchasing some brass tubing, there would be an advantage in a thinner walled product. The milspec lanterns use an aluminum generator and I am sure it is an aluminum alloy of some kind but over all copper fairs favorably in strength and melt points with aluminum.

Aluminum melt point: 1220 F.
Copper melt point: 1984 F.

Element Young' Modulus Yield Strength Ultimate Strength
iron 211 080–100 0350
copper 130 033 0210
aluminum
070 015–020 0040-0050

Lots of factors to consider, but for testing I think this will work out pretty well.

Ed

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#25

Post by Jim_l »

You may be right. I know very little about metallurgy, just remember reading something on here about it. It might have been about making a Q99 or something. In that case the thickness would be less.
Does copper have any tendency to stress crack like some brass does ?


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#26

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Copper and brass are subject to stress cracking and something called work hardening. It is the reason the flare on generators as well as copper flares in flare fittings get cracks in them after repeated removal and tightening. Also I am not sure how the heating and cooling cycles of use effect the copper, or brass for that matter, but when I salvage a generator, after cleaning, I always re-anneal the metal to reduce work hardening, heat dull red and quench in water.

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#27

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Ryan, commercially there are over 24 commonly recognized names/types of brass, Yellow brass, Red Brass, White Brass, Tonval Brass, Admiralty brass, High Brass, Low brass, it goes on and on. Now to find out what Brass most generators use, lol. I think I even heard once before but I can't remember.

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#28

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Hi Frank, it is type "L" copper. It is pretty common stuff for "soft" copper, used in refrigeration, plumbing. "M" copper is on the thin side. They do make one even heavier, "K".

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#29

Post by mikewells »


Real neat project Ed,
I'm very impressed.


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#30

Post by AzWolf »

Hey, Ed? You don't happen to be a reloader, do you?
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#31

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Lee,
When I lived in Alaska I had friends that did my re-loads. 35 Whelen, 300 Mag, 30-06. And John wrote me talking about the generator shell and brass cartridges, out of that came the idea to use a reloader to neck down the outer shell.

Rico,
That is a good idea and I already stumbled on to it!

The generators are performing very well, now have two running and testing, the results warrant finding some brass tubing. I may build a couple more out of copper if I can not locate some brass easily. A couple of them are going to others for some testing.

Ed

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#32

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Eoooowh! Thank you Ryan, I called around town looking for brass tubing and could not find what I wanted. Looked for a commercial type supply, supply house. About an hour ago I placed an order online for some. I measured the wall thickness of a Coleman generator today too, wanting to sure whatever I got was at least as thick, but with a preference to getting something 25 to 50% thicker, as a margin for safety.

If you go back there please check a few things for me please. Price, type of brass if listed, ie 260 or C260, etc. wall thickness in the 3/8 O.D. size, I am look for at least 0.020 to not more than 0.03, Ideal would be 0.024-0.028.

Is that picture cropped/full sized? If so look and see if you can read the labels, and send me it in an email.

I will get back on the net and look for a hobby store now, or maybe Michael's craft store.

Ed

Note added:
I have since found an online metals store where I could choose wall thickness and sizes better.

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#33

Post by highdesert »

Ed, the Fastenal store down off of Parr Blvd might have some too.

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#34

Post by Dmacp »

Ed-
That is outstanding. Ever thought about making a ring generator like a petromax?

One thing I have learned about stress cracking, it usually results from impurities inside the metal microstructure-impurities like oxides that continue to corrode long after the metal is manufactured. It happens during the manufacture, not after. The stress causes it to fracture. As far as cold working brass, it does happen very easily, and it is also removed very easily by annealing. You would automatically do this every time you burned a lantern. I do not think that anything anyone is doing will cause stress corrosion or stress cracking in brass unless it is bad brass to begin with.

Some metals do have an inherent problem with stress corrosion. Some high tensile aluminum alloys for example.

Best of luck to you Ed.

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#35

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Thanks Ryan,

The price is right, but the wall thickness is too thin. I measured some of my Coleman generators with a dial caliber and found them to be .020", I would think I need that as minimum thickness. Already shipped is some I found with a wall thickness of .030" and that should do for them just fine. What I had wanted was .024-.028" but I can't find that on the internet in a small quantity (a few feet). I will send you one in a week or two.

Ed

Note: On one of the two I made I have 40+ hours of run time without a glitch or hint of a problem, very pleased now. I was running both of them daily, all day, then just one of them and didn't light it today, as I am satisfied with the performance.

Many more hours on the lantern and generator now and it is working well, once in a while it requires rotating the pricker. Here is a picture of one that I made the outside shell shorter, just trying to figure out what is necessary, etc.

gen-19.jpg

Ed

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#36

Post by Nevada_Ed »

A couple of these have been used since early 2011, one of them goes camping a lot.

Ed

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#37

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Another concept gen project:
gen2001a.jpg

gen2002.jpg

gen2003.jpg

gen2005.jpg

gen2006a.jpg

gen2007a.jpg


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#38

Post by Nevada_Ed »

Replaced missing pictures.

Ed

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