201 Pump Cups (actually, pump cups in general)

[BobA]

This topic actually started in the topic Project 201, where member 'markds2' and I were discussing the fact that his 201 (in the box and known to be used just a few times) has the neoprene pump cup (apparently from the factory), when the parts list calls for the leather cup. Mark posits that this might have been a production change in the later manufacture of this model. I think that this is worthy of further research, and of course, the best way to do that is to first check what I have from that era to get started, and then to ask you folks to see what you have. Together, we can pin it down.

Here is an excerpt from the original discussion:

BobA wrote: [QUOTE=markds2]Here are the scans of the instructions included with my '83 model 201. And you are right, the part number shows 216-5091 which is correct for the leather washer. The instructions do appear to have the date of 12-76 so I wonder if they changed to neoprene later in production whist using instructions printed earlier?

It has to be one of two things. Either it is, as you said, a production change - OR - somebody, between 1983 and the present, found that the pump wasn't working, and instead of just oiling the leather, went out and bought one of the pump replacement kits (which use the neoprene cups) and installed it.

Actually, this (to me) is an interesting point. However, since this topic will soon be moved to the archives, I'm going to start a new topic called 201 Pump Cups for the purpose of trying to pin this down.


BobA



Here is what I have from that era:


Date Model Cup Material

1/71 502 Leather

11/75 275 Leather

9/76 425E Leather

8/79 200A Leather

10/79 400 Leather

10/80 220K Neoprene

4/83 275A Neoprene

11/86 288A Neoprene


So, looking at the very limited evidence that I have here, it appears that Coleman went from leather to neoprene cups across the board in the 1979-1980 time frame. Can we get some more input here to confirm and/or narrow this down?

Thanks,


BobA

[bluepen61]

I thought neoprene came into vogue after the 275A, CLX, CL1, and CL2 model production. I didn't inspect or mark my 290 collection with that characteristic. I should do that. I have a few 288's and 286's. Hmmm, I wonder.

[markds2]

Thanks for starting this thread Bob,
I notice that Sean, (living in England) has just received an unfired 201 (see here: http://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/post/got-this-delivered-today-7519751?pid=1288077232#post1288077232), but I don't know it's age, I might ask him if it is too much trouble for him to check both the date and the pump cup for us.

[markds2]

Bob, FYI itsawhalefish posted this re his unfired 201:

No problem. 7 - 81 and I can confirm that it's neoprene.

[BobA]

markds2 wrote: Bob, FYI itsawhalefish posted this re his unfired 201:

No problem. 7 - 81 and I can confirm that it's neoprene.

OK, very good. So, we'll add yours & Sean's in, and:

Date Model Cup Material

1/71 502 Leather

11/75 275 Leather

9/76 425E Leather

8/79 200A Leather

10/79 400 Leather

10/80 220K Neoprene

7/81 201 Neoprene

4/83 275A Neoprene

9/83 201 Neoprene

11/86 288A Neoprene


If you're wondering why I haven't added my (6-76) 201 to the list, it's because, when I received it, someone had put in a pump replacement kit. That is certain. Since it was not in its original configuration, it is meaningless to this discussion. Thankfully, I had a correct original pump assembly as well as a leather cup, so it has been restored to its proper original form.

I would surely like to get some more examples in the '79 - '81 time frame, as that is appearing to be the point at which the change was made.

In any case, Mark - this shows more evidence to support your reasoning of a production change in the 201 (and, in fact, across the board).


Thanks,
BobA

[BobA]

BobA wrote: I would surely like to get some more examples in the '79 - '81 time frame, as that is appearing to be the point at which the change was made.

Just to clarify, I want this information on all Colemans, not just the 201.


BobA

[bluepen61]

My 2 examples early 290 CLX badged lanterns dated, 6 - 83 have neoprene pump cups. Several of the later 290-700 and 290A's in the collection have neoprene too. (I didn't take note of those models or dates.) I don't have very many H, J, K or 275/275A but I will check on those I have tonight.

[BobA]

Thanks, John.


Date Model Cup Material

1/71 502 Leather

11/75 275 Leather

9/76 425E Leather

8/79 200A Leather

10/79 400 Leather

10/80 220K Neoprene

7/81 201 Neoprene

4/83 275A Neoprene

6/83 290 Neoprene (2)

9/83 201 Neoprene

11/86 288A Neoprene


BobA

[bluepen61]

I checked a few more tonight.

275A - 11/82 Neoprene
228H - 9/73 Leather
220H - 11/74 Leather
275 - 9/79 Leather
275 - 9/79 Leather
228J - 5/79 Leather
220K - 10/80 Neoprene

I hope this helps.

[BobA]

OK...

Date Model Cup Material

1/71 502 Leather
9/73 228H Leather
11/74 220H Leather
11/75 275 Leather
9/76 425E Leather
5/79 228J Leather
8/79 200A Leather
9/79 275 Leather (2)
10/79 400 Leather
10/80 220K Neoprene (2)
7/81 201 Neoprene
11/82 275A Neoprene
4/83 275A Neoprene
6/83 290 Neoprene (2)
9/83 201 Neoprene
11/86 288A Neoprene


It's really looking like anything produced 10/79 & earlier has leather cups while anything produced 10/80 & later has neoprene cups. This one year period is where we need to focus on. Any of you members with lanterns (or stoves) made from 10/79-10/80, please report what you have.


Thanks,

BobA

[BobA]

Come on, folks! Please!

Some of you must own Coleman lanterns & stoves that were made from 10/79 - 10/80! I'd really like to get this narrowed down as close as possible. So, please, check your pump cups and report back. It would probably be a good time to put a couple of drops of oil on them, while you're at it.

Thanks,

BobA

[kellyblues]

Somewhere I have my research data I did before making the final specs to make dies to make pump leathers. I have a pretty extensive list. I measured every single pump cup in Ernie Hiatts collection at the time. Lanterns,stoves,mill spec, everything. That took a while. Without digging it out ( I'm at work at the moment ) i do remember being surprised to find a Neoprene in a late 220 1978 lantern. This lantern was in a factory sealed box. I purchased it from Ernie and opened it myself.

[Gavercronos]

11/81 220K- Neoprene. It was on the original (long) pump shaft.

[BobA]

kellyblues wrote: Somewhere I have my research data I did before making the final specs to make dies to make pump leathers. I have a pretty extensive list. I measured every single pump cup in Ernie Hiatts collection at the time. Lanterns,stoves,mill spec, everything. That took a while. Without digging it out ( I'm at work at the moment ) i do remember being surprised to find a Neoprene in a late 220 1978 lantern. This lantern was in a factory sealed box. I purchased it from Ernie and opened it myself.

Hi Kelly,

Nice to see you. I haven't "spoken" to you in years. Hope all is well with you. I remember buying fuel cap gaskets from you, "back in the day". Do you still do any of that?

To the point - what you wrote is very interesting. My first thought was, "that figures"! It seems that anytime one is getting close to narrowing down any change in the components used, Coleman always seems to come up with some exception that screws up the data!

In any case, should you come across this data that you compiled, I would be interested in what you found.

Thanks,


BobA

[BobA]

Gavercronos wrote: 11/81 220K- Neoprene. It was on the original (long) pump shaft.

Thanks, Will.


Date Model Cup Material

1/71 502 Leather
9/73 228H Leather
11/74 220H Leather
11/75 275 Leather
9/76 425E Leather
5/79 228J Leather
8/79 200A Leather
9/79 275 Leather (2)
10/79 400 Leather
10/80 220K Neoprene (2)
7/81 201 Neoprene
11/81 220K Neoprene
11/82 275A Neoprene
4/83 275A Neoprene
6/83 290 Neoprene (2)
9/83 201 Neoprene
11/86 288A Neoprene


BobA

[DougA]

I have a 200A dated 11-79 with a leather pump cup.

[BobA]

DougA wrote: I have a 200A dated 11-79 with a leather pump cup.

Thanks Doug!


Date Model Cup Material

1/71 502 Leather
9/73 228H Leather
11/74 220H Leather
11/75 275 Leather
9/76 425E Leather
5/79 228J Leather
8/79 200A Leather
9/79 275 Leather (2)
10/79 400 Leather
11/79 200A Leather
10/80 220K Neoprene (2)
7/81 201 Neoprene
11/81 220K Neoprene
11/82 275A Neoprene
4/83 275A Neoprene
6/83 290 Neoprene (2)
9/83 201 Neoprene
11/86 288A Neoprene


BobA

[kellyblues]

BobA wrote: [QUOTE=kellyblues]Somewhere I have my research data I did before making the final specs to make dies to make pump leathers. I have a pretty extensive list. I measured every single pump cup in Ernie Hiatts collection at the time. Lanterns,stoves,mill spec, everything. That took a while. Without digging it out ( I'm at work at the moment ) i do remember being surprised to find a Neoprene in a late 220 1978 lantern. This lantern was in a factory sealed box. I purchased it from Ernie and opened it myself.

Hi Kelly,

Nice to see you. I haven't "spoken" to you in years. Hope all is well with you. I remember buying fuel cap gaskets from you, "back in the day". Do you still do any of that?

To the point - what you wrote is very interesting. My first thought was, "that figures"! It seems that anytime one is getting close to narrowing down any change in the components used, Coleman always seems to come up with some exception that screws up the data!

In any case, should you come across this data that you compiled, I would be interested in what you found.

Thanks,


BobA


Well howdy there Bob!!! Good to see you too. Now as always I'm here as en enthusiast and try NOT to promote my stuff here but to answer your question. Not yet, but soon.

Yeah one thing I've learned and long ago is that Coleman never feared testing something and they used everything they had and they didn't keep many records of that. Of course it makes matters worse that most of the records they did keep got lost in a tragic fire. For that in our hobby there is no single individual that is the definitive end of Coleman knowledge. Ole HE was the closest thing to that and hes no longer with us.

As I mentioned I do have all my research data and I'd like to take this opportunity to address a question I received via email after my post the other day in this thread. Ernie graciously allowed me to inspect and record data about a great number of things, not just pump cups. His only request was that I never share it in whole publicly or privately without his prior knowledge consent. Share here and there sure to help the hobby. But never publish it. Like posting it here. It no secrete Ernie and I parted ways and Ill openly admit the responsibility of that falls solely on me. Just because of that Ill not go against his wishes after he was generous enough to allow me to rummage endlessly through his breathtaking museum and some of his private stash on dozens of occasions.

So everyone gets this straight it wasn't Bob A that asked and furthermore got agitated with me because I wont publish it and continued on to question my integrity and my honesty. I know with all certainty if they don't end up at the destination I suggested it wont be at the lack of my accurate and inclusive directions on how to get there. Fearing a distraction by any detours I made sure to strongly advise " Going Straight".

Okay, I feel better now. On to the the info.

Keep in mind the lanterns that were mine in my data I no longer have with the exceptions of my heirlooms for I sold my collection long ago.

The following are the earliest dates I have for Neoprene.

220: 10/1978
200A: 11/1979

I found something else worth mentioning
201 : Nickel fount 11/1978 Neoprene
201: Regular fount 11/1978 Neoprene

201's before and after that had leather.

Again I don't have any of these lanterns in front of me nor do I own any of them. However either it was my lantern or someone eases i personally inspected the pumps. During that time I had ID'd pretty well what the replacement pump kit that included the pump shaft looked like and what the factory pump assemble with neoprene cup looked like. They had VERY significant differences. Baring an oversight on my part I don't believe the lanterns or other GPA's I marked for being the earliest rubber cup to have been a newer replacement assembly in an older unit.

I didn't read all of my data for lack of time. Its all hand written and I have no digital copy.

Hope this helps, and its good to see ya again Bob
KW

[BobA]

Thank you, Kelly!

Here's how it stands now:

Date Model Cup Material

1/71 502 Leather
9/73 228H Leather
11/74 220H Leather
11/75 275 Leather
9/76 425E Leather
10/78 220 Neoprene
11/78 201 Neoprene (2)
5/79 228J Leather
8/79 200A Leather
9/79 275 Leather (2)
10/79 400 Leather
11/79 200A Leather
11/79 200A Neoprene
10/80 220K Neoprene (2)
7/81 201 Neoprene
11/81 220K Neoprene
11/82 275A Neoprene
4/83 275A Neoprene
6/83 290 Neoprene (2)
9/83 201 Neoprene
11/86 288A Neoprene


BobA