A Coleman failure?

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Northman49
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A Coleman failure?

#1

Post by Northman49 »

71ENIn19psL._AC_UL480_QL65_.jpg


No-they-don't-work: A more recent study by U.S. Geological Survey scientist, Tom Smith, suggests that bears in the wild ignore bear bells, treating them as they would a bird or some other background noise. Therefore, negating the entire purpose of carrying it all.Sep. 19, 2020
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#2

Post by JimL »

Aren't those dinner bells for bears?
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#3

Post by Gunhippie »

How do you tell Griz scat from Black Bear?

Black bear scat has lots of berry seed and skins, insect parts and some hair.

Griz scat has little bells and smells like hot peppers.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#4

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Re: A Coleman failure?

#5

Post by Bumpkin_95 »

Not really a big problem around here. But my noise makers are just stamped 44. I do actually believe in the bear spray for black bears and started carrying some when I got PICs of a Sow with Cubs on my trail camera
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#6

Post by Deanofid »

After seeing the ineffective nature of pepper spray against enraged mobs of people over the past couple years, I would doubt a bear would think much of it. I don't carry bear spray or wolf spray around here. I carry a special spray made by Ruger or Colt.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#7

Post by SteveRetherford »

its more like a dinner bell :-) calling all bears !!!
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#8

Post by Gunhippie »

Deanofid wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:45 pm After seeing the ineffective nature of pepper spray against enraged mobs of people over the past couple years, I would doubt a bear would think much of it. I don't carry bear spray or wolf spray around here. I carry a special spray made by Ruger or Colt.

Bear's noses are some thousands of times more sensitive than ours. They basically "see" the world through scent. Every study I've read and every experienced guide from real bear country recommends bear spray as being far more effective--and far more likely to hit the target--than a gun in the face of a charging Griz.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#9

Post by arizonacamper »

I make my own pepper spray for my wife and daughter. Is starts with Ghost peppers-Habanero peppers and this little tiny one from Guatemala that's about a half inch long.
It works on bears too. I too carry something in either. 44 magnum or .45 that I load myself. I used the pepper spray once on a bear and it worked perfectly.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#10

Post by Deanofid »

When I've watched films of bears tearing into wild bee hives, and having bee stingers sticking out of every part of their face, it makes me think that if a bear is wanting to eat you, I'm thinking he won't let some hot sauce stop him.
The two "bear guys" I know around here carry large bore lever actions, not spray. If a bear is coming my way, I want more than spray. Whether you spray them or shoot them, you have to be facing them. I've done neither, so that is just my opinion.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#11

Post by Majicwrench »

Was a fatality here a while back.... just looked can't find it.....two (black) bear hunters, I remember somebody was quoted "They both shot is and it just kept coming...."
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#12

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Coleman failure?

#13

Post by Stovie »

It isn't an "either or" kind of thing, or a duality. Carry both in Bear country. Black bear is a different scenario than Grizzly. A lot different. Both are dangerous to be sure, but usually a black bear can be persuaded to hang out somewhere else. When a Grizzly bear attacks, it's another story and have to be prepared to kill it.

One of my favorite Bear tales is from the Journals of Lewis & Clark. The Grizzly bear was unknown to science. The two captains kept getting stories from the different Indian nations going up the Missouri. They were skeptical, and basically believed they were exaggerating, and besides, no bear could be a match for a well armed, well disciplined cadre of Infantrymen.

Boy, were they in for a surprise! In those days the Grizzlies would turn and attack on sight, at full speed. Which is considerable for such a large animal.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#14

Post by offrink »

This is one time I think a large bore AR with a standard capacity magazine would be perfect. Nothing says “stay” like 9 500 grain 50 beowulf in 15 seconds.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#15

Post by Majicwrench »

Stovie,
The bear people that claim to know about these things would disagree.....a griz is more likely to slap you around and leave. A black bear is more likely to eat you.
Neither is a fun situation however.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#16

Post by zoomkat »

I'd almost bet that more people are killed in the woods each year by "hunters" than by bears. I'd rather meet a bear on a hiking trail than some "deep woods Rambo" that is armed with weapons. YMMV
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#17

Post by Coldwaterpaddler »

Hunting deaths in Colorado by decade: https://cpw.state.co.us/learn/Pages/HE- ... nting.aspx , in summary, one hunter/hunting-related death per year.

In Colorado, there's been three fatal attacks by bears in the last 50 years.

In 30 years of hunting, I've never run into a 'deep woods Rambo'.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#18

Post by Stovie »

Majicwrench wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:21 pmThe bear people that claim to know about these things would disagree


Depends on how you define "bear people" I suppose. Guide hunters in Montana, Alaska seem to know their stuff pretty well. I trust their judgment more than the biologist types, who seem to be more ... "political" shall we say. The former carry a rifle and pretty much keep it within arms reach in Grizzly country, and a serious pistol caliber loaded with hard cast. I've no way to determine whether a Grizzly "just wants to slap me around and leave".
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#19

Post by D421 »

I have been following this thread and trying not to comment but I can’t help myself. Please understand that I have no intention of offending anyone and am not saying anything is absolute, it’s not.

I did however investigate Bear maulings in Montana and Wyoming for 21 years. Not from a desk but in the field, personally going to the scene and talking with the people involved. During this time I worked with Outfitters to develop and teach a class to keep people safe in bear country.

This conversation like most jumped to the argument of guns vs bear spray. This is not where you should start. To put this in context we should all know what to do when a lantern catches fire, but if you know how to keep it from catching fire your life is better.

Most bear attacks in Montana and Wyoming happen when an elk is killed and left over night before it can be packed out. When the hunter returns he is surprised by a bear that has claimed the carcass. If you can’t pack out your game move it to a place where you can see it when you come back for it. Return with as many people as you can, look things over form a distance and approach with the wind to your back.

Any activity in bear country should be a constant risk assessment exercise. Sneaking around in the dark timber is a time when you up your risk. Keep an eye out for bear sign, if you smell something dead it sure may be a carcass claimed by a bear that is near and will defend its meal. May be time to back track and try something different.

Being close to a sow with cubs’ ups the risk, if you get between the sow and cubs’ things have a good chance of getting exciting.
Leaving food (any food, canned food, horse feed, bacon grease, dirty dishes etc.) will attract bears. Never have food in you tent, cook and store food and game away from where you sleep.

Guns vs spray. I’ve seen them both work, and I’ve seen them both fail. Typically, bears charge from around 30 feet and get to you in less than 3 seconds. Ask yourself, can I use my gun to fire a shot or shots at this moving target and hit it in a manner that will kill it immediately. Also ask can I access my spray and spray it, either to hit the bear or in a manner that will cause him to run into the cloud of spray. What if the wind blows the spray away?

If the bear hits you will you lose your gun or spray? What then? I have been charged twice. Spray worked one time, the other time I had no time to do anything, the bear passed within a few feet of me and ran off. I can tell you you’re macho attitude runs down your leg during these times. You do not have time to think if you have not done some pre planning.

The above is not meant to teach anything in such a short time and applies to grizzly bears in the lower 48. Point is to make people think and learn so they can be safe.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#20

Post by stoves1234 »

Two buddies are hunting. One spots a huge grizzly and tells his friend to start running for their lives. His friend says "There's no way we can outrun a grizzly!" His buddy tells him "I don't have to outrun the bear, just you!" Sorry guys, I just had to tell that old one.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#21

Post by offrink »

Dominic I agree. Avoidance is best.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#22

Post by Majicwrench »

Stovie, your guide hunters don't "study these things". Those that do, say that black bears are more likely to eat you. What you choose to carry was not the point.
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#23

Post by Stovie »

Well if I'm dead, I don't care if they eat me at that point. I need effective means of self defense for myself, family, friends.

The key thing it isn't an "either or" situation, it isn't a "one or the other". Statistics are great and all, but I carry both, or neither, depending when and where I'm at.

There's no way to know for certain how a given situation will turn out with either species. It may certainly be necessary to kill a black bear too, I'll not argue that point. It's just they are GENERALLY speaking a bit easier to persuade. They are animals though, and inherently unpredictable.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#24

Post by outlawmws »

Griz/Brown bear and the more common black bear are two different critters despite being in the same basic category.

2 years ago I walked up near nose to nose with a black. Actually I was "still hunting" (walking as slow and quiet as possible, stopping to watch a lot.) and I had stopped to use the binocs. I hear something to my left and get my gun ready "just in case". There is some brush between me and the animal, and I'm expecting a coyote since its low. I saw the bear's head and scuffed my foot to get its attention, - It CERTAINLY had mine!

It was as surprised as I was (and likely didn't know WHAT I was, just that I was a live creature - I still hunt masked and with a camo poncho as it breaks my "human" look. I do have some blaze orange on me as well. I've had deer come right up top me trying to figure out what I was, and watch me from a distance trying the same.

In any case he jumped to a tree to his left and tried to climb it, and stopped due to blocking foliage almost within arms reach. I was trying to grow eyes in the back of my, as this wasn't a huge bear and I was concerned MOM was close by. I started backing away slowly and once I was about ten feet away he dropped out of that tree and shimmied up a large pine that he COULD climb - did this in about two bounds on the ground, and went about 15 ft up in a flash.

I kept backing away and then realized No one would relive me without a pic, so I dug out my cell phone and stepped back around the brush I had stepped around. He had dropped out of the second tree as soon as I was out of sight and was ruining up the hillside (steep hill too!)

So that one was pretty timid. it could have been completely different though.

Last year, first night in camp a bear came through after I went to bed. didn't disturb anything, just passing trough... No other bear visits that trip...
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#25

Post by cooler »

My niece works for REI in Seattle and they refer to sleeping bags as "Bear Burritos."
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#26

Post by BSAGuy »

I read a survival story in Backpacker magazine 3-4 years ago about a grizzly attack. The hiker was carrying BOTH bear spray and a .44 magnum in a shoulder holster. The bear mauled him 2x within 20 minutes.

First attack, he used the spray because he couldn't reach his pistol. Bear went through the cloud of spray in a nano-second with no loss of speed at all. Roughed the guy up pretty bad.

He balled up and the bear backed off. He started a 3 mile hike back to his car.

After 5 minutes or so, the bear came at him again. The guy was dazed and slow to react and the bear ripped the holster off. Ripped the guy's scalp all across his forehead and a couple of stiff bites on his arms.

The bear backed off and the guy stumbled back to his car, bleeding like heck and barely able to see well enough to drive through all the bleeding.

He had to drive 20 miles to a hospital by himself for treatment.

He survived.

Not that we shouldn't be prepared (where have I hear that mantra before???), but if a bear is ticked off enough, there's really not much a human can do to save himself.

Scary.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#27

Post by Deanofid »

BSAGuy wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:42 pm He had to drive 20 miles to a hospital by himself for treatment.

He survived.

Not that we shouldn't be prepared (where have I hear that mantra before???), but if a bear is ticked off enough, there's really not much a human can do to save himself.

Scary.
Yes, scary.
We need to realize that people (human beings) are not really equipped to deal with another being that is not aware that it can die. That is our main drawback in survival fighting. We know that we may die. Bears do not know that. Sharks do not know that. Killer whales do not know that. Heck, a house cat does not know that. It is our main disadvantage when it comes to a life and death struggle, either with another human, or with a wild animal. No other being on this planet knows that it will die, and has not got the same kind of fear of death as humans. Many animals have a very strong survival instinct, but they do not contemplate on it. We do. It impedes us in a struggle with other non-human beings. (i.e., if a bear were attacking you, would you have the presence of mind to stick your fingers in its eyes? That could possibly divert its attention enough for you to get away, but you have to think of it before you do it, and by then the bear, or whatever, may rip off a limb. Or a head...)
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#28

Post by Chucker »

Never question the effectiveness of a .44 mag. or similar. Bear spray is spray, and sometimes works. Bears like sour cream with that, I've heard.

When I was preparing for an Elk Hunt in Colorado years ago, the 'old guy' in the group told me if you climb a tree, a Black Bear will eat you, A Griz will knock the tree over, then eat you.

Yes, he told us how to best avoid encounters which is priceless advice. I never have had to test his theories on tree climbing though, thank God.

Great info above everyone. Interesting reading.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#29

Post by Gunhippie »

At least we don't have elephants or Cape buffalo. Or rhinos. Or cobras. Or much of anything that lives in or near Australia.
Last edited by Gunhippie on Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#30

Post by Whitegas Extraordinaire »

Deanofid wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:41 pm
BSAGuy wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:42 pm He had to drive 20 miles to a hospital by himself for treatment.

He survived.

Not that we shouldn't be prepared (where have I hear that mantra before???), but if a bear is ticked off enough, there's really not much a human can do to save himself.

Scary.
Yes, scary.
We need to realize that people (human beings) are not really equipped to deal with another being that is not aware that it can die. That is our main drawback in survival fighting. We know that we may die. Bears do not know that. Sharks do not know that. Killer whales do not know that. Heck, a house cat does not know that. It is our main disadvantage when it comes to a life and death struggle, either with another human, or with a wild animal. No other being on this planet knows that it will die, and has not got the same kind of fear of death as humans. Many animals have a very strong survival instinct, but they do not contemplate on it. We do. It impedes us in a struggle with other non-human beings. (i.e., if a bear were attacking you, would you have the presence of mind to stick your fingers in its eyes? That could possibly divert its attention enough for you to get away, but you have to think of it before you do it, and by then the bear, or whatever, may rip off a limb. Or a head...)
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Exactly how do we know other animals don’t fear death?

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Re: A Coleman failure?

#31

Post by outlawmws »

Image

A 44 mag on a black bear can work well, with a well placed shot. A Brown/Griz? hardly notices it...

People in Alaska use 454 Casull and bigger in handguns for bear protection, if not a big Mag rifle.

".44 Remington Magnum bullets travel 1.5 times the speed of a 737 airplane at cruising speed, while .454 Casull bullets travel 1.8 times that same speed. Furthermore, the muzzle energy of a .44 Remington Magnum round averages out to 900 ft-lb, while a .454 Casull round averages out to about 1700 ft-lb."
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#32

Post by Tgarner01 »

outlawmws wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:50 am Image

A 44 mag on a black bear can work well, with a well placed shot. A Brown/Griz? hardly notices it...

People in Alaska use 454 Casull and bigger in handguns for bear protection, if not a big Mag rifle.

".44 Remington Magnum bullets travel 1.5 times the speed of a 737 airplane at cruising speed, while .454 Casull bullets travel 1.8 times that same speed. Furthermore, the muzzle energy of a .44 Remington Magnum round averages out to 900 ft-lb, while a .454 Casull round averages out to about 1700 ft-lb."
Okay Outlaw... What's the 460 S&W ballistics... We might as well get the bear behind the one charging us at the same time 😉
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#33

Post by zoomkat »

Bear bells turn into a gun fest. Just how big will they get! ;)
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Re: A Coleman failure?

#34

Post by D421 »

Will a 44 mag kill a grizzly bear? Yes I've seen it done. Would I pick it no. 454 casual, better about the same energy as a 30 30 Winchester.

Guys, the first five years I worked in grizzly country I carried bear spray and a 44 magnum revolver. I know I would have used the gun and not the bear spray. As I investigated more and more bear attacks I went back to carrying my issued 40 caliber pistol and was confident I would use bear spray during a charge (and did). I came to this conclusion after seeing a slightly better result of spray over guns during the attacks I saw. When looking for wounded bears I carried a 12 gauge with slugs. I'm not some liberal do gooder. I'm just stating what I have seen first hand.

I don't discourage anyone from carrying the gun of their chosing for defence of any kind. But just for kicks set up a bear target on a wagon or a sled at 25 or 30 yards that can be pulled toward you with a 4 wheeler. Shoot at that target as it comes toward you a few times. Then honestly check your target for hits that would have killed the bear Immediatly.

The simple truth is if you are charged by a grizzly there are no good options. I've spent hundreds of days in grizzly country, and seen things first hand. They are one of the neatest and most interesting animals I've ever been around. Its darned hard to trust an aerosol can fill of peppers over a darn nice load of hot lead that works in every movie. And if you can't don't. But be honest with yourself and your ability.

I don't know if they are afraid of death but I do know the will fight like he'll to defend a carcass or their cubs. I also don't believe they see humans as food. If they did they would eat many of the people they knock the s&!t out of.

Great discussion wish we were doing it over a nice camp fire.

Oh and who says coleman failed with the bell? They sold em and made money.
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Coleman failure?

#35

Post by Stovie »

There's a couple big predator species that were hunted to extinction thousands of years ago if I recall correctly - Saber Tooth Tiger and the Cave Bear, both of which would make modern hikes a lot more dicey! Grizzly bears would seem tame by comparison I expect, and Saber Tooth Tiger was no slouch.

It is a different feeling being directly part of the food chain. I'll never forget my buddy hiking in front of me in Glacier, all of a sudden he started floating up in the air back pack and all, like an Apollo astronaut hopping around on the moon. Bear!! LOL
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Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:59 pm

Re: A Coleman failure?

#36

Post by williamlee111 »

Deanofid wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:45 pm After seeing the ineffective nature of pepper spray against enraged mobs of people over the past couple years, I would doubt a bear would think much of it. I don't carry bear spray or wolf spray around here. I carry a special spray made by Ruger or Colt.
+1
Not looking for anything. I have too much already, my wife says. 
 
 Bill
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